Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by Aiscence

And being a ranged doesnt make the mechanics easy, it makes them easy for the melees and casters..

Don't disagree with anything you said except part of this right here. Casters, especially as a Red Mage player, are frequently asked and expected to do many of the same mechanics that they ask of physical ranged. The only caster who ever gets excluded from that is black mage. "for the melees and black mage" would be a more accurate statement.

Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Akuido you are taking opinions way to seriously. Your statements dont disprove any of ours. They are just a different perspective.

Heres an additional one. If range could do as much dps as melee why take melee? Why not have the whole team run physical ranged so everyone could mechanic dance however they want?

Again to me the answer lies in the fact that playing a melee is more difficult, albeit slightly, because you are dealing with positionals and mechanics interrupting your rotation, thus having to improvise to make the best of specific moments in fight sequences.

Casters have a similar difficulty cause mwchanics directly interrupt/alter their rotations.

Without incentive to play melee or caster(ie higher dps) they will become underplayed. And with melee: gear is a very concerning part. A melee savant needs 3 sets of gear to play his 4 classes. Casters and ranged have 1 each. This means job flexibility in those roles is slightly higher.

Tbh mechanics less so this current savage tier, but these things are generally true and enable the developers to create more interesting fight mechanics with that in mind.

And to finish ill say it again. Most of the above statements are perspective opinions. Please dont try to combat them as if they are facts like you've done to my comments in the past. Feel free to provide your own perspectives but trying to combat opinion, Is literally pointless.

BLM BiS is far away from SMN and RDM BiS.

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Don't disagree with anything you said except part of this right here. Casters, especially as a Red Mage player, are frequently asked and expected to do many of the same mechanics that they ask of physical ranged. The only caster who ever gets excluded from that is black mage. "for the melees and black mage" would be a more accurate statement.

It's sad, because RDM's movement is probably the less usable of the three, for more than 1GCD :/

Originally Posted by lulunami

At the launch of 2.0, Bard did more damage than melee DD's while having buffs and freedom to do mechanics with minimal uptime loss. As a result, many groups chose to bring a 2nd Bard and only took the minimum amount of melee DD (1) if they even took one.

Many of FFXIV development team's balance decisions have drastically favored melee DD buffs so that 2 melee or 3 melee DD compositions were desired. Melee DD's are pretty much worthless if they did not do more damage as they take a lot more time to optimize and create strategies to accommodate melee DD's. Melee DD's are generally terrible to do mechanics with and lose a lot of damage if they were not catered to.

Traditionally in MMOs, ranged DD's are just better in every way.

Let's just remember that the two two meta melee job were the lowest dps ones last expansion. If their dps is the same as ranged, the only difference is that you are free of playing what you enjoy playing without dragging your team down, and that's what matter.

Originally Posted by Aiscence

Let's just remember that the two two meta melee job were the lowest dps ones last expansion. If their dps is the same as ranged, the only difference is that you are free of playing what you enjoy playing without dragging your team down, and that's what matter.

If you factored in Dragoon's RDPS values, with a double Ranged comp they were probably the highest job in the game, bar none.

If you do the same for Ninja and consider that threat manipulation added unseen bonuses, Ninja was not the bottom.

Originally Posted by lulunami

At the launch of 2.0, Bard did more damage than melee DD's while having buffs and freedom to do mechanics with minimal uptime loss. As a result, many groups chose to bring a 2nd Bard and only took the minimum amount of melee DD (1) if they even took one.

that is both true and completly missing the point, or rather you spell it out yourself, you just don't seem to see it. Bard did the same or MORE damage than melee while giving damage buffs melee, specifically monk didn't (don't forget dragoon had piercing damage up back then) aswell as resource buffs and that was in a time were mechanics often were way less "lets two people handle it, the rest can stand still" than they are now, of course bard would reign supreme in that situation. Just that bard lost ALL of that, theres no monopoly on damage buffs, resource buffs don't exist anymore and of course bard shouldn't do the same damage as say a monk on a puppet fight like faust, just that in the very beginning the developers actually missed that aspect,, but for that you give the melee like 100-150 dps extra in case of perfect uptime so they can lose 2 or 3 global cooldowns do to unavoidable mechanics like flares but thats a number that should put them at equal footing in a "normal" fight, slightly above in a fight like e2s and slightly below in some heavy movement fight, theres no reason why they need to be clearly in the lead even in the most heaviest of movement fights.

doesn't change the fact that in current fights having more than 2 ranged (phys or casters) is functionally worthless because there simply aren't mechanics to deal for 3 ranged dps, you can do every single turn with 3 ranged if so desired and the players are good enough, but the third will simply take the melee spot, there is no accomandating melee dd's you put them in the spot closes to the boss and let the ranged (of which you should allways have 1 phys 1 caster at least) do some stupid dance around mechanics the melee probably wouldn't know exist if they didn't wipe cause the ranged messed up, that takes neither skill nor some noteworthy amount of time, a third ranged offers you nothing you didn't get out of the first two.

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Don't disagree with anything you said except part of this right here. Casters, especially as a Red Mage player, are frequently asked and expected to do many of the same mechanics that they ask of physical ranged. The only caster who ever gets excluded from that is black mage. "for the melees and black mage" would be a more accurate statement.

this! Lol was afk in PF for a weekly E4s clear and was reading the chat argument, about how the fight was hard on BLM cause of the movement but RDM and SMN completely excel, and I’m just like that’s not even remotely true, because we have ruin 2 doesn’t make us a mobile machine and because RDM has a gap closer and jump back doesn’t make it a mobile machine either. I don’t understand the preferential treatment for casters that are only BLM but the rest of us are just a BRD clone.

Originally Posted by lulunami

Eden Savage mechanics is relatively simple compared to previous raid tiers. There are many situations in previous raid tiers (such as Midas/Ultimate) where being a melee DD was a disadvantage and you just lost damage up-time. That is why some group only took 1 melee (Dragoon) and brought other ranged/magical DD's.

There are accommodations to melee DD's if you do not believe it. There are many melee up-time strats in previous raid tiers for that reason. In Eden (Savage) Titan fight, it is more optimal to give certain squares to melee DD's and tanks, otherwise you lose damage. Ranged DD's basically do not have to care much about that.

funny you cite midas, i mean there are just 4 raid tiers and a whole addon between midas and the current raid, and to take your eden example, yes it is more optimal to give certain squares to melees and tank, ranged don't have to care about that, so ? you make it sound like running farther away is somehow easier than staying close.

Even with 4 ranged (which would be stupid for reasons like losing the 1% aswell as melee lb) you would most likely still have 2 extra people stay close to the boss, just not the melees you don't have because guess what ? its more convenient for everybody, even for a bard it is more convenient to stay closer as that raises the chance s/he will still get a preemptive heal if the healer was a second slow or whatever. also i specified my argument about not accomandating melees in that handing out 2 designated "melee" (or "stay close") spots takes no noteworthy amount of time or skill, if you really think the 5 seconds it takes people to figure out that if everyone needs to sit in his own square you should give the ones closest to the boss to the melees and tank or for melees to actually take these spots closest to the boss when the mechanic calls for it warrants melees to just be superior to everyone else than i will have to disagree.

And yes, there were times in the past were this was different, there may again come times in the future where this will be different, but what even the most "well meaning" advocates for some kind of ranged tax advertise for is basically "make melee so much stronger than everyone else that even in the absolute worst case they will still be number one" and that one is bull, no one's lost 1000 dps (or whatever the addon in questions equivalent may have been) do to having to move out of melee range for some mechanic, yet people want to give them anywhere from 500-1000 dps just because they have to stay in range, classes AND fights being different actually should favor different classes, melee should indeed not be allways worse, but theres zero reason for them to be allways better all the same