5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[ForteNightshade]

Lol

This thread is the bandwagon of strawmen complaining about stuff SE already told us they are addressing

But keep beating that horse. Maybe it'll happen faster.

Find me a single post, comment or interview from the development team that mentions the low damage of Summoner, Red Mage, Bard, Machinist or Dancer. I suspect I'll be waiting quite a while since Kajv already covered the only mention those respective jobs received.

Furthermore, it's both disingenuous and a flat cop out to insinuate good balance is somehow unachievable. Without changing a single aspect of the aforementioned jobs, simply increasing their potencies solves this issue, albeit in a rather boring manner. They already did this with Ninja, thus dispelling this nonsensical idea it's impossible. What it boils down to is these jobs are being overly punished for utility they either no longer have or isn't nearly as valuable as they devs believe. Verraise comes to mind, which became a significant issue for Red Mage during Stormblood. They ultimately had to buff it due to people disregarding the job in favor of Summoner. Why they taxed it yet again is beyond me, but the result has been the same. Except now Black Mage is the one pulling ahead.

Tell you what. If you can explain to us what justification there is for Black Mage to pull nearly two thousand more rDPS than Red Mage or Dragoon to be a thousand above Bard, I'll admit this is all hogwash and we're overreacting. And just for clarification purposes, please remember we're discussing raid DPS—the statistic which accounts for buffs. Therefore, the discrepancies I listed are accounting for all four jobs at total damage contribution, buffs included.

[whiskeybravo]

Tell you what. If you can explain to us what justification there is for Black Mage to pull nearly two thousand more rDPS than Red Mage or Dragoon to be a thousand above Bard, I'll admit this is all hogwash and we're overreacting.

Nice exaggeration. There's 1700 difference tops. And at the lower (but still functionally clearable percentiles) that drops to as low as a 1000 difference.

Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do.

Why does BLM deal more damage than RDM? Because that's how SE decided to order them.

And since it seems like the last few commentors needed a reminder:

100% parity is a pipe dream. Not realistic. 95% would be pretty damn good. Which is only about ~5% off from where they are right now.

[HyoMinPark]

Nice exaggeration. There's 1700 difference tops. And at the lower (but still functionally clearable percentiles) that drops to as low as a 1000 difference.

>nearly 2,000 difference
>”There’s only 1700 tops.”

This is purely a semantics argument to attempt to discredit. Nearly 2,000 isn’t really that huge of an exaggeration: it’s still a relatively large amount; too large.

Lower percentiles are not the best examples to try and prove any point. They don’t take into consideration what jobs are truly capable of, but instead look at them purely at an average performance. Should we balance around the average?

Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do.

Why does BLM deal more damage than RDM? Because that's how SE decided to order them.

You’ve been really quick to call out strawmans in this thread, but you’re making your own right here.

[Dogempire]

Nice exaggeration. There's 1700 difference tops. And at the lower (but still functionally clearable percentiles) that drops to as low as a 1000 difference.

Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do.

Why does BLM deal more damage than RDM? Because that's how SE decided to order them.

And since it seems like the last few commentors needed a reminder:

Nobody cares about the lower percentiles.

I don't think anyone in the history of this game has ever unironically complained about ice mages doing more dps than an emote spamming samurai with various macros with attached sound effects for each skill they use.

1700 dps is a HUGE difference, it's literally the dps clear requirement +200 dps going from E2S to E3S, and 85% of the dps requirement jump from E3S to E4S assuming you get the slow instance.

ONE class is all it takes to push your party dps over the enrage timer's dps reqirement. Not two classes, not three, ONE.

[kajv95]

And since it seems like the last few commentors needed a reminder:

100% parity is a pipe dream. Not realistic. 95% would be pretty damn good. Which is only about ~5% off from where they are right now

See, I don't like to come off as rude or anything, but the entire last page had not a single person vouching for true 100%. It was all in agreement that we just want it closer. I don't quite understand where you're coming from, with your ever arrogantly stated quote that we apparently need a reminder. That aside...

Nice exaggeration. There's 1700 difference tops. And at the lower (but still functionally clearable percentiles) that drops to as low as a 1000 difference.

The problem here is that, if said lower percent players happen to improve, they will inevitably still be completely outclassed purely by job choice alone, by players that don't even have to improve to still be outdoing them in some cases. Designing like this would be flawed in ANY multiplayer PvE game, not just FFXIV. Call out how you believe these numbers are small all you want, in the end all these roles all boil down to DPS with one functional core - dealing damage. If they fail to keep up among others who have the same core, then they simply do not have a place and people are arguably playing the game right by excluding them if they're playing to win. In Fighting Game Communities we have a saying. If you want to win, you pick a top tier.

Square flat-out told us that they don't want players to be excluded as a reason for why certain jobs have been overhauled so massively, so the task falls to them to make sure that this is not the best way to play. Currently they are failing.

Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do.

Why does BLM deal more damage than RDM? Because that's how SE decided to order them.

Cute statement, but can be disproven by the fact that SE has gone on record saying that Samurai, for example, is not where it should be right now, and Ninja has been touched up. Did they suddenly change their mind after their initial decision of ordering, then? The FFXIV dev team openly admits that they make mistakes sometimes (and sometimes not at all but that's a seperate issue) and literally ask us to go here and give feedback. You're here telling us not to give feedback where we think it's due.

[Akiudo]

Nice exaggeration. There's 1700 difference tops. And at the lower (but still functionally clearable percentiles) that drops to as low as a 1000 difference.

Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do.

Why does BLM deal more damage than RDM? Because that's how SE decided to order them.

your "lower" percentiles literally is the minimum listed, i.e. the absolute lowest of the lowest, the very worst dancer compared to the very worst everything else. even at the 10% percentile the difference between first and last place is 1440~ dps, if you want to compare the absolute worst score, not just percentile but literally the worst score than also compare the best ones, in that case the difference indeed would be 2000 dps.

and as a reminder to your reminder, if 95% would be pretty damn good, and we are of off that by 5%, why not try to reach the 95% equality treshold ? balance can allways be improved, balance will also never be perfect, both these things are absolute truths, however this doesn't mean or even imply that the developers shouldn't try to improve the balance just because it can never be perfect

[Vendalwind]

Nice exaggeration. There's 1700 difference tops. And at the lower (but still functionally clearable percentiles) that drops to as low as a 1000 difference.

Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do.

Why does BLM deal more damage than RDM? Because that's how SE decided to order them.

And since it seems like the last few commentors needed a reminder:

You are being a straight up distracting, straw man propping, belligerent fool right now. It should be pretty obvious your argument holds no water and is only wasting peoples time at this point.

on your 1700 remark... Not only does that fluctuate slightly each day, but im willing to bet your disparity estimate was just plain wrong.

On leviathin. (which is not a 100% uptime fight so numbers drop a bit) rDPS wise of course
25th percentile RDM is at 10.88k MNK is at 12.75 = 1.87k difference,
50th percentile RMD 11.5 MNK 13.3 1,8k difference
75th percentile DNC at 12k MNK at 13.95k 1.95k difference. Someone saying "almost 2000" is literally basically true.

AND on full uptime E2 the gap at certain percentiles is literally BIGGER than 2k. btw

Back on E3 Levi takes something longer than 11 minutes to kill. If enrage in that fight was at 11 minutes (shorter than it is in reality) clear dps is higher than 72k dps.
If you take 1.7k out of that dps (70.3 dps) there is a disparity of 1122000 damage to be made up by the team with 1.7k dps less.
That divided by 70300 means that the team with 1.7k DPS less is literally 16 SECONDS SLOWER

16 seconds is a freaking huge disparity right now. Easily, absolutely easily right now having a monk over a RDM or DNC makes a fight easier. literally 16 seconds easier at equivalent skill levels. Thats Freaking ridiculous. Means the rest of the team has to make up for effectively 16 seconds of performance to pass the same dps checks.

It means class choice alone can be responsible for a clear vs. and enrage at 2.3% remaining HP (46398000/47520000 damage disparity as explained above)

I have no idea how someone could look at that and think thats okay.

[Katie_Kitty]

I have no idea how someone could look at that and think thats okay.

Sadly these people defending the lack of balance in this game don't look at the numbers and that's why they persist with their nonsense. Why look at the numbers when you can just pretend the other side is saying they should be top DPS and attack that fake argument instead? Why look at the numbers when you can just demand parse numbers and change the subject to the personal performance of the person you're arguing with instead? These people have mountains of tactics to try to distract from the issue at hand and they're more than happy to make use of each and every one. No need to look at numbers at all.

[Kabooa]

16 SECONDS SLOWER .

Just so we're clear.

It took you longer to read my response than it will the hypothetical difference in kill time.

Well that's not entirely true.

I have to pad this out with a few more words but this should do it.

[IntrovertAnt]

Just so we're clear.

It took you longer to read my response than it will the hypothetical difference in kill time.

Well that's not entirely true.

I have to pad this out with a few more words but this should do it.

I’m not sure what special ed class you’re from, but if it takes you 16 seconds to read the above quote...uhhhhh.....practice reading more?