Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Originally Posted by CKNovel

You do realise that rDPS is the subject here and not pDPS?
rDPS is calculate by taking the DPS taken from buffs such as dancer, dragoon tether or embolden. It also adds the DPS given with Brotherhood.
Meaning despite the jobs giving and taking from the team, MNK and BLM are still crazy broken and despite the DNC taking a good 5% DPS from a broken MNK, it's still the lowest rDPS

As for your Nin, I don't know why you think it's okay. It's actually the whole reason, if that Nin's comp was MNK+BLM then they could allow the Ninja's death. If their comp was NIN/RDM/DNC/BRD, the Ninja's death would put much more pressure on the rest of the team.

More DPS doesn't simply mean more DPS. It means more flexibility and margin of error.

Just to further emphasise this. aDPS specifically does not count single target buffs. Currently, there is no ranking where anyone but the Dancer or Astro themselves benefit from their respective buffs.

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

I mean, I'd understand if general consensus was to nerf those jobs, but people are mostly advocating for bringing other jobs to blm/mnk/drg level, so it's not like it would affect their clears... Why then?

Admittedly, I think all three could be nerfed slightly. And I play Dragoon. That being said, I suspect it's because people defending them either don't follow FFlogs or are only concerned with clearing. For them, the how doesn't matter just the end result. And some will simply defend SE blindly. It was no different when the Lily system was rightfully ridiculed as a complete mess. You still saw people shouting from the hilltops how everything was fine.

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It was no different when the Lily system was rightfully ridiculed as a complete mess. You still saw people shouting from the hilltops how everything was fine.

at least some people simply seem to have problems differentiating between things being balanced and things being fun/good design, take current summoner who basically everyone agrees is a clunky mess right now but which is also in the bottom 5, or the bench tier or whatever you want to call them. If they would simply buff Summoner dps to be close or even on par with blackmage it would still be a clunky mess, and therefore not fun for most people but it would perform well and a lot of people would in fact take this aspect to say "see, they buffed summoner dps , now its fine/overpowered" completly ignoring that it still simply didn't feel good to play.

On the other hand you also have people that seem to work under the assumption that if a class "feels" good thats all thats needed as long as the fights somehow work out, taking bard as an example here as "dilluted class fantasy" aside it flows really well, its dps is still subpar to say the least.

Its just that at least some people seem to combine these two aspects in some way, maybe intentional to suit their point, maybe even unintentional simply because of where their own prioritys lie but in fact these two things are entirely different issues. A class can be balanced or even overpowered and still feel like shit, on the other hand a Class can play great but still suck ass. Sadly this is something that dillutes the discussion at points, as people tend to brush of concerns about dps numbers with "your class can clear and feels good, its fine" and people that complain that their class plays bad or unintuitive get told that they are fine as they deal good dps. (though at least the classes that complain the most about "feeling bad" got promised changes by square, whereas the "my dps sucks bad" club hasn't heard a word from the higher ups)

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

I mean, I'd understand if general consensus was to nerf those jobs, but people are mostly advocating for bringing other jobs to blm/mnk/drg level, so it's not like it would affect their clears... Why then?

It depend, you can't really bring all the others job up without fixing/nerfing those that are inherently broken.
Those three could use a slight nerf to keep them in line with the rest but the biggest culprit here is MNK, which can ouput as much or more dps than a BLM when it should be SAM role. The recent changes just brought up to light the job does indeed need nerf as the QoL and buff it received were too much of a gain and broke the balance and it just got accentuated with third party tools like Triggernometrie to know the server tick (but to SE defense, they couldn't entirely predict that one but it was one that was coming since SAM were doing it long before with Meditate /s).
Some job need a rework like SMN and NIN as they are either too cluttered or have clunky gameplay (mudras) that hinder the flow of action while others need a damage buff on top of that (SAM, RDM) but the main issue is to know what will affect them.
SAM for example need a severe bump in damage to return to its role of being BLM physical melee edition but with Shoha being reworked, we don't know if that'll be the plus the job needed or if even more potency or just an increase in Jinpu buff dmg % will be neeeded. While RDM just need a bump in potency since it's on the bottom of the ranged dps when it used to be just ahead of BRD during SB.

Originally Posted by Hacchan

It depend, you can't really bring all the others job up without fixing/nerfing those that are inherently broken.

Eh sure you can, just increase potency on all other jobs. This isn't pvp, jobs aren't fighting each other, whatever damage rdm+dnc+brd groups are doing doesn't directly affect blm+mnk+drg groups in any way; only indirectly when competing for a spot in group. But their own rhetoric is that doesn't matter, as long as any job can clear, right? So if say rdm were doing 50k dps and blm would remain same - blm would still totally be balanced, since their ability to clear wouldn't change, right?

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Eh sure you can, just increase potency on all other jobs. This isn't pvp, jobs aren't fighting each other, whatever damage rdm+dnc+brd groups are doing doesn't directly affect blm+mnk+drg groups in any way; only indirectly when competing for a spot in group. But their own rhetoric is that doesn't matter, as long as any job can clear, right? So if say rdm were doing 50k dps and blm would remain same - blm would still totally be balanced, since their ability to clear wouldn't change, right?

If peoples mind set would allow it, yes.

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

Because it literally was possible.

It wasn't easy, but it was possible.

If you actually looked through the data instead of looking at the aggregate you find plenty of groups who had one of the three and 3 "underpowered" dps and clearing. You find rare examples of those with none and clearing.

You find the 1 + 3 examples where the 1 could have been replaced with another job and still cleared.

This doesn't mean don't adjust jobs.

It means stop throwing out bad information.

Originally Posted by AikenDrum

My point being: playing "overpowered" jobs you were able to get clears without putting more work which you would otherwise had to if you were playing bottom jobs.

Your point is a baseless assumption.

You don't personally know the effort any individual has put in, the quality of that effort, the quantity, the combined effort of supporting players, literally anything other than what you can extrapolate from data (That no one ever looks through).

Given you specifically focus on week one, I think it better to say "Everyone put in immense amounts of effort" instead of "Those guys? They didn't put in as -much-."

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Your point is a baseless assumption

My basis is that with same percentile lower jobs wouldnt have enough dps to beat the enrage, where as your top jobs did.