Tanks that want to take it slow?

[fumofu]

For a big pulls to work, all players must be on a same skill level and decently geared. That's not always a case in 71-79 leveling dungeons, and I'm having huge problem with players who takes these dungeons as some kind of speedrun competition.

It's sub-optimal play, if I'm being honest. If that's acceptable to you, then that's your prerogative, but how you play can and will affect other players.

1."It's sub-optimal play" - he says. How can you expect optimal play in a leveling dungeon, where players are learning their jobs and don't have optimal equipment?
2. Yes, it is acceptable and it MUST be acceptable and yes it goes two ways. If you insist on big pulls when tank or/and healer can't handle it, you're not doing any favors and you're just stressing everyone out as hell. You like pushing max effort? Ok, just bear trough leveling dungeons until lv80, gear up and go to savage or ex raids. This is where you can demand everyone to play perfectly and up to max standards. But please don't expect it in leveling dungeons. Or else you're just making this game more toxic than it should be.

[Misutoraru]

For a big pulls to work, all players must be on a same skill level and decently geared. That's not always a case in 71-79 leveling dungeons, and I'm having huge problem with players who takes these dungeons as some kind of speedrun competition.


1."It's sub-optimal play" - he says. How can you expect optimal play in a leveling dungeon, where players are learning their jobs and don't have optimal equipment?
2. Yes, it is acceptable and it MUST be acceptable and yes it goes two ways. If you insist on big pulls when tank or/and healer can't handle it, you're not doing any favors and you're just stressing everyone out as hell. You like pushing max effort? Ok, just bear trough leveling dungeons until lv80, gear up and go to savage or ex raids. This is where you can demand everyone to play perfectly and up to max standards. But please don't expect it in leveling dungeons. Or else you're just making this game more toxic than it should be.

I think there is also an issue of “optimal” it is rather subjective.
What optimal mean to each player? Do the rotation correctly and use buff?
Eating food doing every single buff and oGCD at right time without a single second of delay?

[ForteNightshade]

Who seem to think it's the end of the world if I don't speedrun a dungeon. I play mainly for fun and chain-pulling every group isn't all that fun for me. It may be suboptimal play, but it's the way I prefer to play, and if people take issue with it, the kick button exists :V

That's about the long and short of it and I thank you for being reasonable.

And your fun supersedes everyone else's, apparently. If you have three people who want to go faster, it's downright selfish to refuse. Even if you don't want to do the super pulls, at least gather up two packs. A single pull is making things take longer for no reason. As a healer, I wouldn't even need to cast Regen, the outgoing damage is that pitiful. Personally, I really can't stand small pulls since there's just no reason for it. So much so that kick isn't a threat because now I don't have a thirty minute penalty.

[Shurrikhan]

And your fun supersedes everyone else's, apparently. If you have three people who want to go faster, it's downright selfish to refuse. Even if you don't want to do the super pulls, at least gather up two packs. A single pull is making things take longer for no reason. As a healer, I wouldn't even need to cast Regen, the outgoing damage is that pitiful. Personally, I really can't stand small pulls since there's just no reason for it. So much so that kick isn't a threat because now I don't have a thirty minute penalty.

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...

I think there is also an issue of “optimal” it is rather subjective.

What is optimal, by definition, is objective. It's just a matter of what the goal is.

If the point of, say, the Expert Roulette, is simply to tomes to prep your gear -- as it is for most people -- and the food you would be using cost 30k apiece, unless you're rolling in gil it'd make little sense to pop raid food in a dungeon run because you'd then have to spend time recouping that loss. The difference to run speed would be negligible yet there'd be a somewhat noticeable (negative) impact to your time in other ways, especially if not making full use of the duration of the food. Pulling multiple groups of mobs, on the other hand, is a significant difference to the run time, and costs nothing.

[Lastelli]

I have a problem with people that think it's fine to waste other people's time, whether they're tanks doing single pulls so that they can avoid using defensive cooldowns, dps that don't aoe or healers that don't use oGCD heals and just spam their basic healing spell while doing close to 0 damage it makes no difference.
I have a problem with people that don't care about being an asset to their party and are completely fine with being a liability.

[Misutoraru]

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...



What is optimal, by definition, is objective. It's just a matter of what the goal is.

If the point of, say, the Expert Roulette, is simply to tomes to prep your gear -- as it is for most people -- and the food you would be using cost 30k apiece, unless you're rolling in gil it'd make little sense to pop raid food in a dungeon run because you'd then have to spend time recouping that loss. The difference to run speed would be negligible yet there'd be a somewhat noticeable (negative) impact to your time in other ways, especially if not making full use of the duration of the food. Pulling multiple groups of mobs, on the other hand, is a significant difference to the run time, and costs nothing.

I am afraid is not that simple, one might think 30k food cost almost nothing as he/she might be a billionaire in game and it still boost up the killing speed even by little, that player might think doing 99% effectiveness is optimal, other might thing doing correct rotation is optimal and do not think it is a big issue if the buff/CD timing miss aligned by a bit.
I am not against big pull, but I believe big or small is not a single player decision, it is the group effort, healer tank and dps they all have to contribute for a big pull to success. It is the majority in the party decide the pace. If a tank or heal want a smaller pull because of unfamiliar with either the role or the dungeon, I think it is absolutely fine for them to request and discuss, only the party disagree and they refuse then it might be the issue

[Misutoraru]

I am afraid is not that simple, one might think 30k food cost almost nothing as he/she might be a billionaire in game and it still boost up the killing speed even by little, that player might think doing 99% effectiveness is optimal, other might thing doing correct rotation is optimal and do not think it is a big issue if the buff/CD timing miss aligned by a bit.
I am not against big pull, but I believe big or small is not a single player decision, it is the group effort, healer tank and dps they all have to contribute for a big pull to success. It is the majority in the party decide the pace. If a tank or heal want a smaller pull because of unfamiliar with either the role or the dungeon, I think it is absolutely fine for them to request and discuss, only the party disagree and they refuse then it might be the issue

I want to make it clear myself
I agree everyone in dungeon run should do the best they could offer, but I do not think “sub-optimal” and “optimal” is the right phase as different player have different expectation and there are no official standard set by dev other than clearing content before enrage/timer

[Dragonkat]

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...

Before you drive down that highway you might want to make sure you clear the straw men out of the way first.

Given the fact that Elitists in this game treat anyone who doesn't meet their precious parses and runs dungeons as "sub optimal" human beings who have forgotten that some of play games for this mystical concept called "fun" And seem to have forgotten there's this thing outside savage called the MSQ. And some of us aren't interested in clearing Titania EX 20 times a day so we can get that extra 10 IL to clear it .042 seconds faster, I'm all for anything that annoys them. Oh gee your dungeon might take a whole extra few minutes? The sheer horror!

The fact I watched two tanks last night wipe us in both expert roulette (sped run ahead without asking and the healer couldn't keep up) and the lvl 73 dungeon while leveling my ninja (undergeared and didn't ask healer first) might have something to do with this fact too. As that wastes more time running back.

To the OP I will say the biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork. Ask your healer first, try to double pull if you can. But don't be pressured to speedrun wall to wall it. It's your game to play how you choose. And people pug'ing can get over it far as I'm concerned. If they want to get pissy that's their problem not yours.

[ForteNightshade]

Before you drive down that highway you might want to make sure you clear the straw men out of the way first.

Given the fact that Elitists in this game treat anyone who doesn't meet their precious parses and runs dungeons as "sub optimal" human beings who have forgotten that some of play games for this mystical concept called "fun" And seem to have forgotten there's this thing outside savage called the MSQ. And some of us aren't interested in clearing Titania EX 20 times a day so we can get that extra 10 IL to clear it .042 seconds faster, I'm all for anything that annoys them. Oh gee your dungeon might take a whole extra few minutes? The sheer horror!

The fact I watched two tanks last night wipe us in both expert roulette (sped run ahead without asking and the healer couldn't keep up) and the lvl 73 dungeon while leveling my ninja (undergeared and didn't ask healer first) might have something to do with this fact too. As that wastes more time running back.

To the OP I will say the biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork. Ask your healer first, try to double pull if you can. But don't be pressured to speedrun wall to wall it. It's your game to play how you choose. And people pug'ing can get over it far as I'm concerned. If they want to get pissy that's their problem not yours.

Except it isn't "your" game. It's a multi-player game where your decisions impact other players. It isn't "elitism" to pull big. If I'm to be blunt, there is zero excuse to not handle medium sized pulls nowadays. If you can't heal or tank through six mobs, you shouldn't be queuing on either role because you aren't experienced enough to play them. Single mob pulls do such little damage, you can straight remove tank CDs from your bar. They're completely worthless even if you were doing the level 77 dungeon in i400 gear. It's a little different if a less experienced healer can't handle some of the big pulls, especially Qitana's mega pull at the end. But if you're doing The Twinning and pulling one pack at a time. You're just wasting people's time because you care more than your experience than theirs.

That "mystical concept called fun" works both ways. I find it painfully boring to pull three mobs. It's a chore because not only will a 10-15 minute dungeon jump to well over 20+, I'm effectively a gimped DPS as a healer or am flat out wasting many of my oGCDs as a DPS. Now if I get unlucky and have three people who prefer to pull small, well I can leave. If, on the other hand, the majority wants to pull big but the tank refuses. Then we're back to the above. They're putting themselves ahead of the team with this "my way or the highway" crap.

[ValkyrieL]

Always big pull and ,99% of times is all fine specially in warrior insane healing.

There as been 1 or 2 situation since expansion where I slow down after 1st pull because DPS was absolutely abysmal that burned all CD and mobs at 35% health. This was amarout so probably undergear and forgetting free 80 gear to the point where the 2 boss chicken would wipe us without LB.


I personally hate slow pulls when I'm on dps