Tanks that want to take it slow?

[Kabooa]

I like how the implication here is that everyone else would have to ask 3 others what to do but the tank totally doesn't have to.

That's how some of them think.

[aqskerorokero]

Speedrun is not a tank problem, it's healers'.

[ForteNightshade]

To add, as far as we are into the expac, people that normally don't tank are still testing the waters thanks to them adding gunbreaker. I've a friend who played DPS her entire FF14 career so far and is just now really trying tanking, and it's irksome when she says she's new to tanking and people still try to outpull her because she's getting a feel for not just the job but tanking in general. You don't switch to tank and instantly have the confidence and skills to do wall to wall, esp in leveling dungeons when your party members are synced but you're at level, so I wish folks would calm down over it.

I recommend she use Trusts then. I even said this to a friend of mine for precisely the same reason. She was initially nervous doing huge pulls. Trusts allow you to control the pace without inconveniencing anyone else. That being said, I often suggest even newer tanks try doing a double pull. Six monsters do very little damage, and you'll often find people more willing to accommodate tanks who do this because it shows they're trying to compromise. Personally? I straight prefer wiping because the tank tried a big pull but couldn't handle it. Why? I like they're trying to push themselves. Hence why I'll always reply "Eh, no biggy."

Nothing is more irksome than getting a 71+ dungeon and the tank only wants to pull one at a time. It tells me they wanted a faster run compared to Trusts since human players will typically do far higher damage. But they still wanted to enforce their preferred pace.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

1."It's sub-optimal play" - he says. How can you expect optimal play in a leveling dungeon, where players are learning their jobs and don't have optimal equipment?

I don't, but that doesn't mean optimal play can't or won't happen. And when I say "optimal," I'm talking about a range of play.

Also, so we're clear, I don't think this topic is or was meant to be limited to leveling dungeons.

2. Yes, it is acceptable and it MUST be acceptable and yes it goes two ways.

That's not really up to you; nobody has to accept anything, whether it's from themselves or from others. Of course, how they act based on those feelings is another matter.

If you insist on big pulls when tank or/and healer can't handle it, you're not doing any favors and you're just stressing everyone out as hell.

Personally, I don't ever insist on big pulls.

As a tank, I will do big pulls in the absence of anyone objecting. If we fail, for whatever reason, then I will make adjustments if necessary.

As a healer, I will sometimes encourage the tank to pull more if I think they can handle it.

As a DPS, I will almost never say anything on the matter.

Still, regardless of how I act, I will still think that single pulling is sub-optimal play. It will bore me, if not outright annoy me, but I won't make those thoughts known to the party.

You like pushing max effort? Ok, just bear trough leveling dungeons until lv80, gear up and go to savage or ex raids. This is where you can demand everyone to play perfectly and up to max standards. But please don't expect it in leveling dungeons.

Pulling multiple packs doesn't require "max effort" or "perfect play," nor is it even close.

Or else you're just making this game more toxic than it should be.

In the end, you've inferred far more than I ever implied, in a fairly unfavorable way I think, and I can't help but wonder why.

[Shurrikhan]

The biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork.

It's your game to play how you choose.

Given that the tank is, more than any other role, the pace-limiter for their party, I have to wonder -- was this irony intentional?

No elitist is asking you to perform perfectly in dungeon runs. Heck, they hardly ask in Savage. Your capacity as a gamer is your capacity as a gamer. What is asked is merely that you pay attention and follow simple guidelines like...

• Answering your "urgent phone call" before queuing, especially as a role with an instant queue time.
• Not going afk midfight because of business you, again, could easily have taken care of before entering the dungeon yet refuse to complete the dungeon before doing.
• Not idling just because you finished healing people up.
• Not standing in AoEs because 'it's just a dungeon anyways'.
• Using your Sprint.
• Using your cooldowns.
• Using your AoEs on 3+ targets.

Those are pretty easy standards to match and their consequences are a hell of a lot more than those "0.42 seconds" or even "few minutes" you'd "gleefully" sabotage the run of just to spite someone you assume to be "elitist". This is simply people not taking unnecessarily long to do things. They expect only basic competence. If you refuse even that much, are they really the ones forcing others to play their way?

And, please -- no one's "clearing Titania 20 times a day" for some tiny advantage. That is hyperbole not even anchored in reasonable theme or sense. See the difference?

[Seku]

If you're only doing 1 pack of mobs at a time a Melee DPS that knows how to use their own cool downs (that's right, they have Arms Reach and blood bath) can probably replace you, as they should be able to handle 1 pack at a time.

As for the leveling roulettes with "sub-optimal" gear and ect, if a tank isn't doing big pulls there, the trusts will replace you and the entire group you run with with, as trusts run about the same time with single pulls

Also the game provides you with gear as you level up through the quest. Sub-optimal gear is not a excuse, that and you never needed optimal gear to begin with. If you're several ilevels below, you should consider the following

A. Buy gear from a npc.
B. Go make some money and buy gear from a npc.
C. Make friends with a crafter and have them craft you gear.
D. Stop throwing away the gear the game gives you and use it until you get better gear.

As for learning how to use your job, most jobs rotations are 2-3 weaponskills. If they don't know how they interact with each other, they should go to a training dummy and learn how to use them in order, that's what training dummies are for.

In short, the problem I have with slow pull is that the game has kinda gone out of it's way to give every job the ability to deal with massive pulls. I understand if you're a new tank or healer and need time to figure out the basics, but if you're like 3-4 months+ into the game and you don't understand the very basics of how to do a large pull in a dungeon, you may want to stop and go look up a video on youtube on how to actually do it, ask for help, or sit down and read your skills.

What true optimal play would look like though is DPS putting up their damage buffs and flow into aoe's afterwards, tanks fully utilizing their stun and interject to stop other wise unavoidable area wide damage, large tank busters from a particular monster in packs (assuming their's no WHM AoE stunning), annoying aoe's that cause caster's to move, mages using the LB on particular packs to clear them out faster.

Which I will never expect from a pug. I do expect that you know how to play your job or for you to tell me that you do not upon entry however.

[Yrantis]

I've almost never had a problem big pulling in instances and this was my first MMO I've even played a tank extensively. The cooldowns are very straightforward and your AOE DPS rotations on tanks are...1-2 buttons like everyone else. Not everyone learns at the same pace, but that's why the Trusts exist for dungeons now. You learn your job until you're comfortable and take it to the "big leagues" (honestly the 4mans are a snooze fest without big pulls once you get to know them).
That said, while EXTREMELY rare, I've had healers who were uncomfortable with big pulls who I just slow down for, no biggie. But if you don't ask me to straight off I'm starting that instance at mach speed, as that is the usual preference of everyone involved. This has only bitten me in the ass once that I can recall, where I started mass pulling in Akademia Anyder and the healer just.../quit about midway through the pull. No red line of D/C, no "g2g sorry", just an instant disconnect and "Replenish Ranks?" message.

Not sure what that dude's problem was but it does touch on a point most people seem to be glossing over here: Big pulls are the default play, dungeons are designed with hard "walls" with this in mind. Now you can go beyond this in places like Mt. Gulg where you can make pulls I wouldn't trust random healers with, because it's 5 massive piles of mobs, but for the most part, you should be able to handle 3 packs of mobs in nearly any dungeon with ease. Tanks are designed for this, their cooldowns are balanced perfectly around being able to do this. If you DON'T do this, half of your skills as a tank are sitting there uselessly. There's nothing wrong with playing sub-optimally, but you have to accept that you are de facto choosing to inconvenience someone for your own benefit. There's especially nothing wrong with telling people "Hey I'm learning and not quite there yet" although one starts to raise eyebrows by the time people are in 70+ dungeons.

The true tactic here is to just play PLD when you tank. As soon as you get Clemency your healer is almost entirely optional in any 4 man content. With two competent DPS you LITERALLY don't need one.

[HyoMinPark]

I’m a nervous tank. However, small pulls bore the heck out of me. Same for DPS. Same for healer. Some small pulls on healer I don’t even have to heal... and, at that point, I’m nothing more than a weak, third DPS.

[odym82]

I assume (at least this is my opinion) that newer tanks usually want to go slower and people who want to rush things have maybe done the dungeon about 90+ times and are both bored/forget what its like to be newer and take it slower. If I’ve only done the dungeon a couple times I go slower too. Sometimes people are cool with it, sometimes they get triggered and refuse to heal (SCH >.>)

[Vahlnir]

Some tanks like to take it slow. That's not really an issue for me so long as they are doing their job. Since picking up GNB with Shadowbringers I've gotten a bit more confident in my pulls after some trial and error. It mostly depends on what the healer of a group is capable of. If I feel that they can keep me alive I will do fairly large pulls. If they are not capable...well, I would rather not try. I can typically get a feel for what a healer can do within the first couple packs of trash.