Tanks that want to take it slow?

[Misutoraru]

For a big pulls to work, all players must be on a same skill level and decently geared. That's not always a case in 71-79 leveling dungeons, and I'm having huge problem with players who takes these dungeons as some kind of speedrun competition.


1."It's sub-optimal play" - he says. How can you expect optimal play in a leveling dungeon, where players are learning their jobs and don't have optimal equipment?
2. Yes, it is acceptable and it MUST be acceptable and yes it goes two ways. If you insist on big pulls when tank or/and healer can't handle it, you're not doing any favors and you're just stressing everyone out as hell. You like pushing max effort? Ok, just bear trough leveling dungeons until lv80, gear up and go to savage or ex raids. This is where you can demand everyone to play perfectly and up to max standards. But please don't expect it in leveling dungeons. Or else you're just making this game more toxic than it should be.

I think there is also an issue of “optimal” it is rather subjective.
What optimal mean to each player? Do the rotation correctly and use buff?
Eating food doing every single buff and oGCD at right time without a single second of delay?

[Shurrikhan]

And your fun supersedes everyone else's, apparently. If you have three people who want to go faster, it's downright selfish to refuse. Even if you don't want to do the super pulls, at least gather up two packs. A single pull is making things take longer for no reason. As a healer, I wouldn't even need to cast Regen, the outgoing damage is that pitiful. Personally, I really can't stand small pulls since there's just no reason for it. So much so that kick isn't a threat because now I don't have a thirty minute penalty.

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...

I think there is also an issue of “optimal” it is rather subjective.

What is optimal, by definition, is objective. It's just a matter of what the goal is.

If the point of, say, the Expert Roulette, is simply to tomes to prep your gear -- as it is for most people -- and the food you would be using cost 30k apiece, unless you're rolling in gil it'd make little sense to pop raid food in a dungeon run because you'd then have to spend time recouping that loss. The difference to run speed would be negligible yet there'd be a somewhat noticeable (negative) impact to your time in other ways, especially if not making full use of the duration of the food. Pulling multiple groups of mobs, on the other hand, is a significant difference to the run time, and costs nothing.

[Dragonkat]

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...

Before you drive down that highway you might want to make sure you clear the straw men out of the way first.

Given the fact that Elitists in this game treat anyone who doesn't meet their precious parses and runs dungeons as "sub optimal" human beings who have forgotten that some of play games for this mystical concept called "fun" And seem to have forgotten there's this thing outside savage called the MSQ. And some of us aren't interested in clearing Titania EX 20 times a day so we can get that extra 10 IL to clear it .042 seconds faster, I'm all for anything that annoys them. Oh gee your dungeon might take a whole extra few minutes? The sheer horror!

The fact I watched two tanks last night wipe us in both expert roulette (sped run ahead without asking and the healer couldn't keep up) and the lvl 73 dungeon while leveling my ninja (undergeared and didn't ask healer first) might have something to do with this fact too. As that wastes more time running back.

To the OP I will say the biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork. Ask your healer first, try to double pull if you can. But don't be pressured to speedrun wall to wall it. It's your game to play how you choose. And people pug'ing can get over it far as I'm concerned. If they want to get pissy that's their problem not yours.

[ForteNightshade]

Before you drive down that highway you might want to make sure you clear the straw men out of the way first.

Given the fact that Elitists in this game treat anyone who doesn't meet their precious parses and runs dungeons as "sub optimal" human beings who have forgotten that some of play games for this mystical concept called "fun" And seem to have forgotten there's this thing outside savage called the MSQ. And some of us aren't interested in clearing Titania EX 20 times a day so we can get that extra 10 IL to clear it .042 seconds faster, I'm all for anything that annoys them. Oh gee your dungeon might take a whole extra few minutes? The sheer horror!

The fact I watched two tanks last night wipe us in both expert roulette (sped run ahead without asking and the healer couldn't keep up) and the lvl 73 dungeon while leveling my ninja (undergeared and didn't ask healer first) might have something to do with this fact too. As that wastes more time running back.

To the OP I will say the biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork. Ask your healer first, try to double pull if you can. But don't be pressured to speedrun wall to wall it. It's your game to play how you choose. And people pug'ing can get over it far as I'm concerned. If they want to get pissy that's their problem not yours.

Except it isn't "your" game. It's a multi-player game where your decisions impact other players. It isn't "elitism" to pull big. If I'm to be blunt, there is zero excuse to not handle medium sized pulls nowadays. If you can't heal or tank through six mobs, you shouldn't be queuing on either role because you aren't experienced enough to play them. Single mob pulls do such little damage, you can straight remove tank CDs from your bar. They're completely worthless even if you were doing the level 77 dungeon in i400 gear. It's a little different if a less experienced healer can't handle some of the big pulls, especially Qitana's mega pull at the end. But if you're doing The Twinning and pulling one pack at a time. You're just wasting people's time because you care more than your experience than theirs.

That "mystical concept called fun" works both ways. I find it painfully boring to pull three mobs. It's a chore because not only will a 10-15 minute dungeon jump to well over 20+, I'm effectively a gimped DPS as a healer or am flat out wasting many of my oGCDs as a DPS. Now if I get unlucky and have three people who prefer to pull small, well I can leave. If, on the other hand, the majority wants to pull big but the tank refuses. Then we're back to the above. They're putting themselves ahead of the team with this "my way or the highway" crap.

[Shurrikhan]

The biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork.

It's your game to play how you choose.

Given that the tank is, more than any other role, the pace-limiter for their party, I have to wonder -- was this irony intentional?

No elitist is asking you to perform perfectly in dungeon runs. Heck, they hardly ask in Savage. Your capacity as a gamer is your capacity as a gamer. What is asked is merely that you pay attention and follow simple guidelines like...

• Answering your "urgent phone call" before queuing, especially as a role with an instant queue time.
• Not going afk midfight because of business you, again, could easily have taken care of before entering the dungeon yet refuse to complete the dungeon before doing.
• Not idling just because you finished healing people up.
• Not standing in AoEs because 'it's just a dungeon anyways'.
• Using your Sprint.
• Using your cooldowns.
• Using your AoEs on 3+ targets.

Those are pretty easy standards to match and their consequences are a hell of a lot more than those "0.42 seconds" or even "few minutes" you'd "gleefully" sabotage the run of just to spite someone you assume to be "elitist". This is simply people not taking unnecessarily long to do things. They expect only basic competence. If you refuse even that much, are they really the ones forcing others to play their way?

And, please -- no one's "clearing Titania 20 times a day" for some tiny advantage. That is hyperbole not even anchored in reasonable theme or sense. See the difference?

[Dragonkat]

A bunch of opinions masquerading as facts with a side of cherry picking and putting words in peoples mouths.

Did I ever say I would slow down on purpose to spite someone? No I did not, so we're back to this hackneyed straw man argument where people play bad on purpose. With a dash of "You don't pay my sub"

That's right. You don't. So put away the scarecrows and stop pretending anyone who doesn't play how you want is out to spite the mean ol elitist robots.

Cause yes, teamwork is the key. And NO. ONE. gets to dictate anyone's playstyle to suit their subjective =opinion= of what it should be. Tank sets the pace, shotgun shuts his cakehole [/supernatural]

That's not forcing you to change, it's forcing you to take an extra couple minutes. Learn the difference. And why should it matter? If you don't meet the exp per minute quota do you lose your speedrunner card? (See the aforementioned hyperbole)

I mean how DARE people impact YOUR game by choosing to be slow.

They should dictate their level of comfort to YOUR demands. How dare anyone suggest YOU change to meet the group right?

Otherwise they should just go play away from others in trusts. They don't deserve a seat at the cool kids table.

I take it back, you're not elitists. But your brand of toxic hypocrisy needs to learn that the dungeon run doesn't always get to go how you want. You agreed to that the second you joined a random group.

If you're this bent out of shape about it why are you still hitting the DF button?

"Let me be blunt" I can't stand your attitude as it's how I got two tanks who spent more time wiping than communicating. And how the speedrunner mentality that bled into the DPS > god mentality from people spending more time parsing then playing a GAME is enforcing unrealistic exceptions upon players who shouldn't have to feel obligated to meet it.

The OP wouldn't have even made this post if he didn't have some worry about doing it "wrong" because of the "optimal" people like you seem hell bent on enforcing. To the OP again I say you aren't because it's your decision how to play.

Now I will add that if you are capable of double pulls, by all means try it. If your healer says he can keep you up, have the faith to take that leap, it'll help your gameplay. and help you realize the power of the cooldowns. But don't let bullies ever force you.

Speedruns and wall to walls aren't the norm, it's past time people stopped treating them as such and expecting perfection from day 1.

If you want that hit up the party finder to find like minded. Or do you not have an FC to blaze through with how you want? Or is forcing you to do something you might not want to do outside the normal duty finder an "inconvenience" when it's suggested to you?

Too. Bad.

[Lastelli]

I have a problem with people that think it's fine to waste other people's time, whether they're tanks doing single pulls so that they can avoid using defensive cooldowns, dps that don't aoe or healers that don't use oGCD heals and just spam their basic healing spell while doing close to 0 damage it makes no difference.
I have a problem with people that don't care about being an asset to their party and are completely fine with being a liability.

[Gula]

I have a problem with people that think it's fine to waste other people's time, whether they're tanks doing single pulls so that they can avoid using defensive cooldowns, dps that don't aoe or healers that don't use oGCD heals and just spam their basic healing spell while doing close to 0 damage it makes no difference.
I have a problem with people that don't care about being an asset to their party and are completely fine with being a liability.

Then hop in a Party Finder and dont waste a PUGs time with encouraging wipes.

[Misutoraru]

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...



What is optimal, by definition, is objective. It's just a matter of what the goal is.

If the point of, say, the Expert Roulette, is simply to tomes to prep your gear -- as it is for most people -- and the food you would be using cost 30k apiece, unless you're rolling in gil it'd make little sense to pop raid food in a dungeon run because you'd then have to spend time recouping that loss. The difference to run speed would be negligible yet there'd be a somewhat noticeable (negative) impact to your time in other ways, especially if not making full use of the duration of the food. Pulling multiple groups of mobs, on the other hand, is a significant difference to the run time, and costs nothing.

I am afraid is not that simple, one might think 30k food cost almost nothing as he/she might be a billionaire in game and it still boost up the killing speed even by little, that player might think doing 99% effectiveness is optimal, other might thing doing correct rotation is optimal and do not think it is a big issue if the buff/CD timing miss aligned by a bit.
I am not against big pull, but I believe big or small is not a single player decision, it is the group effort, healer tank and dps they all have to contribute for a big pull to success. It is the majority in the party decide the pace. If a tank or heal want a smaller pull because of unfamiliar with either the role or the dungeon, I think it is absolutely fine for them to request and discuss, only the party disagree and they refuse then it might be the issue

[NosamKin]

Actually if you feel that strongly about it then just play a tank role!
Then you can pull as big as you like.

Otherwise...