Tanks that want to take it slow?

[Shurrikhan]

And your fun supersedes everyone else's, apparently. If you have three people who want to go faster, it's downright selfish to refuse. Even if you don't want to do the super pulls, at least gather up two packs. A single pull is making things take longer for no reason. As a healer, I wouldn't even need to cast Regen, the outgoing damage is that pitiful. Personally, I really can't stand small pulls since there's just no reason for it. So much so that kick isn't a threat because now I don't have a thirty minute penalty.

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...

I think there is also an issue of “optimal” it is rather subjective.

What is optimal, by definition, is objective. It's just a matter of what the goal is.

If the point of, say, the Expert Roulette, is simply to tomes to prep your gear -- as it is for most people -- and the food you would be using cost 30k apiece, unless you're rolling in gil it'd make little sense to pop raid food in a dungeon run because you'd then have to spend time recouping that loss. The difference to run speed would be negligible yet there'd be a somewhat noticeable (negative) impact to your time in other ways, especially if not making full use of the duration of the food. Pulling multiple groups of mobs, on the other hand, is a significant difference to the run time, and costs nothing.

[Dragonkat]

Didn'cha know? As long as you're more casual than those around you, the value of your playtime exceeds theirs. The more elitist you are, the less human you must be, and we don't care about 'dem elitist robot lives.

Now time to drive down the freeway at 50 mph in the leftmost lane 'cus I'm not elitist like that and I could care less when I arrive to work (or inconvenience anyone behind me)...

Before you drive down that highway you might want to make sure you clear the straw men out of the way first.

Given the fact that Elitists in this game treat anyone who doesn't meet their precious parses and runs dungeons as "sub optimal" human beings who have forgotten that some of play games for this mystical concept called "fun" And seem to have forgotten there's this thing outside savage called the MSQ. And some of us aren't interested in clearing Titania EX 20 times a day so we can get that extra 10 IL to clear it .042 seconds faster, I'm all for anything that annoys them. Oh gee your dungeon might take a whole extra few minutes? The sheer horror!

The fact I watched two tanks last night wipe us in both expert roulette (sped run ahead without asking and the healer couldn't keep up) and the lvl 73 dungeon while leveling my ninja (undergeared and didn't ask healer first) might have something to do with this fact too. As that wastes more time running back.

To the OP I will say the biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork. Ask your healer first, try to double pull if you can. But don't be pressured to speedrun wall to wall it. It's your game to play how you choose. And people pug'ing can get over it far as I'm concerned. If they want to get pissy that's their problem not yours.

[ForteNightshade]

Before you drive down that highway you might want to make sure you clear the straw men out of the way first.

Given the fact that Elitists in this game treat anyone who doesn't meet their precious parses and runs dungeons as "sub optimal" human beings who have forgotten that some of play games for this mystical concept called "fun" And seem to have forgotten there's this thing outside savage called the MSQ. And some of us aren't interested in clearing Titania EX 20 times a day so we can get that extra 10 IL to clear it .042 seconds faster, I'm all for anything that annoys them. Oh gee your dungeon might take a whole extra few minutes? The sheer horror!

The fact I watched two tanks last night wipe us in both expert roulette (sped run ahead without asking and the healer couldn't keep up) and the lvl 73 dungeon while leveling my ninja (undergeared and didn't ask healer first) might have something to do with this fact too. As that wastes more time running back.

To the OP I will say the biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork. Ask your healer first, try to double pull if you can. But don't be pressured to speedrun wall to wall it. It's your game to play how you choose. And people pug'ing can get over it far as I'm concerned. If they want to get pissy that's their problem not yours.

Except it isn't "your" game. It's a multi-player game where your decisions impact other players. It isn't "elitism" to pull big. If I'm to be blunt, there is zero excuse to not handle medium sized pulls nowadays. If you can't heal or tank through six mobs, you shouldn't be queuing on either role because you aren't experienced enough to play them. Single mob pulls do such little damage, you can straight remove tank CDs from your bar. They're completely worthless even if you were doing the level 77 dungeon in i400 gear. It's a little different if a less experienced healer can't handle some of the big pulls, especially Qitana's mega pull at the end. But if you're doing The Twinning and pulling one pack at a time. You're just wasting people's time because you care more than your experience than theirs.

That "mystical concept called fun" works both ways. I find it painfully boring to pull three mobs. It's a chore because not only will a 10-15 minute dungeon jump to well over 20+, I'm effectively a gimped DPS as a healer or am flat out wasting many of my oGCDs as a DPS. Now if I get unlucky and have three people who prefer to pull small, well I can leave. If, on the other hand, the majority wants to pull big but the tank refuses. Then we're back to the above. They're putting themselves ahead of the team with this "my way or the highway" crap.

[Shurrikhan]

The biggest problem isn't pace it's teamwork.

It's your game to play how you choose.

Given that the tank is, more than any other role, the pace-limiter for their party, I have to wonder -- was this irony intentional?

No elitist is asking you to perform perfectly in dungeon runs. Heck, they hardly ask in Savage. Your capacity as a gamer is your capacity as a gamer. What is asked is merely that you pay attention and follow simple guidelines like...

• Answering your "urgent phone call" before queuing, especially as a role with an instant queue time.
• Not going afk midfight because of business you, again, could easily have taken care of before entering the dungeon yet refuse to complete the dungeon before doing.
• Not idling just because you finished healing people up.
• Not standing in AoEs because 'it's just a dungeon anyways'.
• Using your Sprint.
• Using your cooldowns.
• Using your AoEs on 3+ targets.

Those are pretty easy standards to match and their consequences are a hell of a lot more than those "0.42 seconds" or even "few minutes" you'd "gleefully" sabotage the run of just to spite someone you assume to be "elitist". This is simply people not taking unnecessarily long to do things. They expect only basic competence. If you refuse even that much, are they really the ones forcing others to play their way?

And, please -- no one's "clearing Titania 20 times a day" for some tiny advantage. That is hyperbole not even anchored in reasonable theme or sense. See the difference?

[Dragonkat]

A bunch of opinions masquerading as facts with a side of cherry picking and putting words in peoples mouths.

Did I ever say I would slow down on purpose to spite someone? No I did not, so we're back to this hackneyed straw man argument where people play bad on purpose. With a dash of "You don't pay my sub"

That's right. You don't. So put away the scarecrows and stop pretending anyone who doesn't play how you want is out to spite the mean ol elitist robots.

Cause yes, teamwork is the key. And NO. ONE. gets to dictate anyone's playstyle to suit their subjective =opinion= of what it should be. Tank sets the pace, shotgun shuts his cakehole [/supernatural]

That's not forcing you to change, it's forcing you to take an extra couple minutes. Learn the difference. And why should it matter? If you don't meet the exp per minute quota do you lose your speedrunner card? (See the aforementioned hyperbole)

I mean how DARE people impact YOUR game by choosing to be slow.

They should dictate their level of comfort to YOUR demands. How dare anyone suggest YOU change to meet the group right?

Otherwise they should just go play away from others in trusts. They don't deserve a seat at the cool kids table.

I take it back, you're not elitists. But your brand of toxic hypocrisy needs to learn that the dungeon run doesn't always get to go how you want. You agreed to that the second you joined a random group.

If you're this bent out of shape about it why are you still hitting the DF button?

"Let me be blunt" I can't stand your attitude as it's how I got two tanks who spent more time wiping than communicating. And how the speedrunner mentality that bled into the DPS > god mentality from people spending more time parsing then playing a GAME is enforcing unrealistic exceptions upon players who shouldn't have to feel obligated to meet it.

The OP wouldn't have even made this post if he didn't have some worry about doing it "wrong" because of the "optimal" people like you seem hell bent on enforcing. To the OP again I say you aren't because it's your decision how to play.

Now I will add that if you are capable of double pulls, by all means try it. If your healer says he can keep you up, have the faith to take that leap, it'll help your gameplay. and help you realize the power of the cooldowns. But don't let bullies ever force you.

Speedruns and wall to walls aren't the norm, it's past time people stopped treating them as such and expecting perfection from day 1.

If you want that hit up the party finder to find like minded. Or do you not have an FC to blaze through with how you want? Or is forcing you to do something you might not want to do outside the normal duty finder an "inconvenience" when it's suggested to you?

Too. Bad.

[Kabooa]

Speedruns and wall to walls aren't the norm, it's past time people stopped treating them as such and expecting perfection from day 1.

it's day 60+.

Go play with Trusts until you're comfortable, then come over to the deep end.

[Yrantis]

*snip*

You're getting awful angry about people wondering why someone would choose to play their job poorly. If I went into an instance and "3/4 group members" told me they didn't want to hit AOE buttons but only single target, I'd definitely think they were playing wrong. I'd leave and not try and force the issue, but you are basically advocating people not use their toolkits to their full potential and be immune from backlash because of it. Everything is degrees I understand, but at a basic level, a tank not pulling at least more than one group is failing at his job as surely as a healer who doesn't press his heal buttons and lets people die, or a DPS doesn't AOE to do more damage so tank/healer resources avoid strain. None of the tanking cooldowns are required for single pulls, and there's so little damage being taken they do practically nothing anyway. Personally I think a tank player should be capable of more than hitting their tank stance and grabbing 3 mobs while they do a watered down DPS rotation. Nobody is saying you can't practice while you learn, nobody is perfect when they start, but if you're at max level then yeah, I'm gonna be curious why you want to slow pull, as even mediocre players by that point can do more than single pulls (I know because that's me!). I'm not going to report you or call you names, but I will usually make a mental note to avoid the person in the future if possible, because if 80 levels aren't enough to teach you how to pull more than a single group of mobs, I suspect you're not really trying. There's no hypocrisy about this though, because I'd be just as likely to avoid an AST who never used cards or a SAM that doesn't AOE.

Nobody is going to crucify you, but you are going to make people angry if you deliberately slow the pace of the whole party for your own whims (hint: I didn't say CAPABILITIES). Most people will understand completely if you say you're learning, but if you just try and say you're doing it for "fun" they're going to get mad and frankly rightly so: you're now putting your time above their time.

Before you say it's the same the other way around: people who want to go slow have an EXCELLENTLY designed option: Trusts. Instant, 0 queue times, cool story interactions and being able to battle with the NPCs, I pull wall to wall and I still love doing the occasional Trust dungeon because of how cool they are. Everything a slow puller wants with absolutely no inconvenience to anybody else. Someone who just wants to get an expert roulette done real fast doesn't have any alternative. If you have an option that caters to you but CHOOSE not to use it, instead opting to inconvenience other people who have NO options, then yeah, you're being selfish. But you're right, I don't pay your sub, and can't stop you from acting how you want, but if you keep making other people miserable you can't be surprised when they try to do the same.

[Laphael]

I mean how DARE people impact YOUR game by choosing to be slow.

They should dictate their level of comfort to YOUR demands. How dare anyone suggest YOU change to meet the group right?

I mean how DARE people impact YOUR game by choosing to be fast. (fixed that for you)
They should dictate their level of comfort to YOUR demands. How dare anyone suggest YOU change to meet the group right?

I take it back, you're not elitists. But your brand of toxic hypocrisy needs to learn that the dungeon run doesn't always get to go how you want. You agreed to that the second you joined a random group.

Same goes for you.

Speedruns and wall to walls aren't the norm, it's past time people stopped treating them as such and expecting perfection from day 1.

They are for sure the norm in lvl 50/60/70/80 dungeons.
Some leveling dungeons can be harder to pull of, but thats it.

[Shurrikhan]

If you want that hit up the party finder to find like minded.

Too. Bad.

Except the majority of people running DF are the people who would like you to not go out of your way to waste time, which is all single-group pulling amounts to when decently geared. That preference not to actively waste time is all that "elitism" here amounts to. Basic competence. Not afking. Not neglecting cooldowns that take virtually no effort to use anyways. That's it.

Multi-group pulls absolutely are the norm. Not pulling wall-to-wall has accounted for less than a tenth of my DF experiences even as a DPS (who is generally allowed no say in the decision, nor do I offer any opinion one way or the other), in ShB or SB, and never more than a fifth since early ARR.

Edit: Again, I'm not saying that one should always multi-pull. If they don't know how to tank, or the healer doesn't know how to heal, then that's that: you do the safe option (whereby a DPS could do the tank's job with a halfway decent healer) and pull fewer mobs. But enough players have basic competence that multi-pulling is the typical standard of play and, yes, you should expect to have to meet that average when in DF. The lowest denominator doesn't suddenly get a free pass when varied from the norm. And the worst "elitists" can do after the average is achieved is silently make your run easier.