5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[CKNovel]

A large amount of these arguments are anecdotal and heck, even most of these gaps can be made up for by having tanks/healers that are actually good at dpsing. the dps checks were slightly tight this tier, but they weren't unachievable. i saw a nin get 9% parses clear e1s-e3s just fine and dandy. it's all clearable with many comps. also, taking in 4 jobs that are utility based will bring a lot of those jobs up to the standard of the other jobs. MNK does not do higher pdps than sam, but slightly less and then there's brotherhood. the only reason mnk looks like it's massively stupidly ahead is because when it gets dance partner and drg tether, it's going to beat sam/blm. MNK is even a better dance partner because it has the fastest average GCD, so they'll often get that closed position. and if they get closed position, you might as well drg tether them too because of exponential growth. Also, that guy who said he ebat e4s on all 3 casters has 0 logs. just saiyan.

You do realise that rDPS is the subject here and not pDPS?
rDPS is calculate by taking the DPS taken from buffs such as dancer, dragoon tether or embolden. It also adds the DPS given with Brotherhood.
Meaning despite the jobs giving and taking from the team, MNK and BLM are still crazy broken and despite the DNC taking a good 5% DPS from a broken MNK, it's still the lowest rDPS

As for your Nin, I don't know why you think it's okay. It's actually the whole reason, if that Nin's comp was MNK+BLM then they could allow the Ninja's death. If their comp was NIN/RDM/DNC/BRD, the Ninja's death would put much more pressure on the rest of the team.

More DPS doesn't simply mean more DPS. It means more flexibility and margin of error.

[AikenDrum]

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

I mean, I'd understand if general consensus was to nerf those jobs, but people are mostly advocating for bringing other jobs to blm/mnk/drg level, so it's not like it would affect their clears... Why then?

[Miminming]

Ranged/SMN/RDM is people who work 12 hour a day and barely manage to buy a meal eveyday
BLM and MNK is people who work 7 hour a day and have plenty to spend
But hey, they both alive and well so its okay right? Heh

[ForteNightshade]

You do realise that rDPS is the subject here and not pDPS?
rDPS is calculate by taking the DPS taken from buffs such as dancer, dragoon tether or embolden. It also adds the DPS given with Brotherhood.
Meaning despite the jobs giving and taking from the team, MNK and BLM are still crazy broken and despite the DNC taking a good 5% DPS from a broken MNK, it's still the lowest rDPS

As for your Nin, I don't know why you think it's okay. It's actually the whole reason, if that Nin's comp was MNK+BLM then they could allow the Ninja's death. If their comp was NIN/RDM/DNC/BRD, the Ninja's death would put much more pressure on the rest of the team.

More DPS doesn't simply mean more DPS. It means more flexibility and margin of error.

Just to further emphasise this. aDPS specifically does not count single target buffs. Currently, there is no ranking where anyone but the Dancer or Astro themselves benefit from their respective buffs.

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

I mean, I'd understand if general consensus was to nerf those jobs, but people are mostly advocating for bringing other jobs to blm/mnk/drg level, so it's not like it would affect their clears... Why then?

Admittedly, I think all three could be nerfed slightly. And I play Dragoon. That being said, I suspect it's because people defending them either don't follow FFlogs or are only concerned with clearing. For them, the how doesn't matter just the end result. And some will simply defend SE blindly. It was no different when the Lily system was rightfully ridiculed as a complete mess. You still saw people shouting from the hilltops how everything was fine.

[Akiudo]

It was no different when the Lily system was rightfully ridiculed as a complete mess. You still saw people shouting from the hilltops how everything was fine.

at least some people simply seem to have problems differentiating between things being balanced and things being fun/good design, take current summoner who basically everyone agrees is a clunky mess right now but which is also in the bottom 5, or the bench tier or whatever you want to call them. If they would simply buff Summoner dps to be close or even on par with blackmage it would still be a clunky mess, and therefore not fun for most people but it would perform well and a lot of people would in fact take this aspect to say "see, they buffed summoner dps , now its fine/overpowered" completly ignoring that it still simply didn't feel good to play.

On the other hand you also have people that seem to work under the assumption that if a class "feels" good thats all thats needed as long as the fights somehow work out, taking bard as an example here as "dilluted class fantasy" aside it flows really well, its dps is still subpar to say the least.

Its just that at least some people seem to combine these two aspects in some way, maybe intentional to suit their point, maybe even unintentional simply because of where their own prioritys lie but in fact these two things are entirely different issues. A class can be balanced or even overpowered and still feel like shit, on the other hand a Class can play great but still suck ass. Sadly this is something that dillutes the discussion at points, as people tend to brush of concerns about dps numbers with "your class can clear and feels good, its fine" and people that complain that their class plays bad or unintuitive get told that they are fine as they deal good dps. (though at least the classes that complain the most about "feeling bad" got promised changes by square, whereas the "my dps sucks bad" club hasn't heard a word from the higher ups)

[Hacchan]

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

I mean, I'd understand if general consensus was to nerf those jobs, but people are mostly advocating for bringing other jobs to blm/mnk/drg level, so it's not like it would affect their clears... Why then?

It depend, you can't really bring all the others job up without fixing/nerfing those that are inherently broken.
Those three could use a slight nerf to keep them in line with the rest but the biggest culprit here is MNK, which can ouput as much or more dps than a BLM when it should be SAM role. The recent changes just brought up to light the job does indeed need nerf as the QoL and buff it received were too much of a gain and broke the balance and it just got accentuated with third party tools like Triggernometrie to know the server tick (but to SE defense, they couldn't entirely predict that one but it was one that was coming since SAM were doing it long before with Meditate /s).
Some job need a rework like SMN and NIN as they are either too cluttered or have clunky gameplay (mudras) that hinder the flow of action while others need a damage buff on top of that (SAM, RDM) but the main issue is to know what will affect them.
SAM for example need a severe bump in damage to return to its role of being BLM physical melee edition but with Shoha being reworked, we don't know if that'll be the plus the job needed or if even more potency or just an increase in Jinpu buff dmg % will be neeeded. While RDM just need a bump in potency since it's on the bottom of the ranged dps when it used to be just ahead of BRD during SB.

[AikenDrum]

It depend, you can't really bring all the others job up without fixing/nerfing those that are inherently broken.

Eh sure you can, just increase potency on all other jobs. This isn't pvp, jobs aren't fighting each other, whatever damage rdm+dnc+brd groups are doing doesn't directly affect blm+mnk+drg groups in any way; only indirectly when competing for a spot in group. But their own rhetoric is that doesn't matter, as long as any job can clear, right? So if say rdm were doing 50k dps and blm would remain same - blm would still totally be balanced, since their ability to clear wouldn't change, right?

[Akiudo]

While RDM just need a bump in potency since it's on the bottom of the ranged dps when it used to be just ahead of BRD during SB.

not going to argue on the rest right now, but this here is simply not true, mind you i don't blame you on this, it just shows exactly where one of the issues in the discussion right now lies so with that being said...

relative dps to other jobs completly aside (if redmage where 50 dps above bard and 3000 behind blackmage it wouldn't suddenly be fine just because it is once again "ahead" of bard.

However and even more important and that what a lot of people seem to miss,(while this is true for all classes lets take your redmage bard example), redmage never was "ahead" of bard, not even slightly. Redmage in personal dps may have been just a tiny bit about bard, but that was the dps the redmage themselves had on the parser, not its raid contribution, which in the case of bard got nerfed into the ground with Shadowbringers. The metric fflogs uses since shadowbringers is different compared to stormblood. Before it was simply the dps you did, even if you were buffed with every single AST card and all, nowadays its your actual raid contribution, i.e. every bit you buff other classes for gets added to your raid dps, every bit of damage you only did because you got buffed gets subtracted, and in that regard bard went from "2% crit for the whole group passive+battle voice+foes requiem, all of which buffed group dps to 'you still got battle voice, be grateful'"

[Saito_]

Eh sure you can, just increase potency on all other jobs. This isn't pvp, jobs aren't fighting each other, whatever damage rdm+dnc+brd groups are doing doesn't directly affect blm+mnk+drg groups in any way; only indirectly when competing for a spot in group. But their own rhetoric is that doesn't matter, as long as any job can clear, right? So if say rdm were doing 50k dps and blm would remain same - blm would still totally be balanced, since their ability to clear wouldn't change, right?

If peoples mind set would allow it, yes.

[whiskeybravo]

I mean if you have a monk then you can switch to black mage or dragoon or really any of the upper half dps jobs.

Not really. Ideally you have 2 melee, a physical ranged and a caster so that you at least get the full party bonus. Telling your caster to be anything other than a caster, in this situation, is detrimental to the rest of the party by way of flat damage loss. Furthermore, unless you're such a hardcore elitist that relationships mean jack shit, if the caster you've run with 2 years decides to go RDM instead of SMN (because SMN has mostly been a dumpster fire this expac), who are you to force them to play BLM instead? What if it's not even leveled because they never liked the job to begin with? You're going to what, kick that person you've been raiding with for 2 years because they don't want to play as a chad BLM so you can bask in the glory of 1000 extra raid dps? Get real bruh. We did just fine with RDM, we absolutely smashed minimum damage requirements. If you can't do it with a RDM then you got bigger problems that have nothing to do with how RDM performs or it's contributions (about 800 dps in our physical heavy comp) to the raid group.

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.