Thread: 5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

Ranged/SMN/RDM is people who work 12 hour a day and barely manage to buy a meal eveyday
BLM and MNK is people who work 7 hour a day and have plenty to spend
But hey, they both alive and well so its okay right? Heh

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not really. Ideally you have 2 melee, a physical ranged and a caster so that you at least get the full party bonus. Telling your caster to be anything other than a caster, in this situation, is detrimental to the rest of the party by way of flat damage loss. Furthermore, unless you're such a hardcore elitist that relationships mean jack shit, if the caster you've run with 2 years decides to go RDM instead of SMN (because SMN has mostly been a dumpster fire this expac), who are you to force them to play BLM instead? What if it's not even leveled because they never liked the job to begin with? You're going to what, kick that person you've been raiding with for 2 years because they don't want to play as a chad BLM so you can bask in the glory of 1000 extra raid dps? Get real bruh. We did just fine with RDM, we absolutely smashed minimum damage requirements. If you can't do it with a RDM then you got bigger problems that have nothing to do with how RDM performs or it's contributions (about 800 dps in our physical heavy comp) to the raid group.

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

Two things:

1) Why would it be "ideal" to bring two melee? There is no reason why two melee would be inherently better except that melee are currently tuned to be far stronger than everyone else but BLM.

2) I'm not sure why you're bringing up raid buffs. Catering and padding are not a factor in this at all because fflogs shows rDPS (personal DPS minus buffs received plus buffs given) which means padding is not considered, and in fact rDPS should be biased in favor of jobs like RDM or NIN over BLM or SAM because they bring raid buffs to the table. The fact that the top jobs absolutely obliterate them even in rDPS with padding removed demonstrates just how insane the gap is.

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Two things:

1) Why would it be "ideal" to bring two melee? There is no reason why two melee would be inherently better except that melee are currently tuned to be far stronger than everyone else but BLM.

2) I'm not sure why you're bringing up raid buffs. Catering and padding are not a factor in this at all because fflogs shows rDPS (personal DPS minus buffs received plus buffs given) which means padding is not considered, and in fact rDPS should be biased in favor of jobs like RDM or NIN over BLM or SAM because they bring raid buffs to the table. The fact that the top jobs absolutely obliterate them even in rDPS with padding removed demonstrates just how insane the gap is.

1. Fights are generally designed with having 4 melee, or rather, 4 mobile jobs in close proximity. The same reason we don't see quadruple melee, and rarely see triple melee - At that point you're likely forcing someone out of melee range (Probably the tanks) or you're half a step from obliterating your neighbor, which in turn can cascade deaths depending on the encounter.

2. Catering, as in, "we deal with this part of the fight specifically around this job / role". This is generally where "max" values come from. While you can no longer pad with raid buffs, there's a significant difference in value each job gains depending on how a party positions for encounters. IE Pantokrator Eden1 during orb baits instead of making your caster run around to drop puddles. All four of them I imagine for speed running

Buff wise, eh. No real comment there.

Originally Posted by Miminming

Honestly though if fflog dont show rdps ninja and the other synergy job will still be prefered for number justice...

The timing of SE decision of weakening the synergy job and fflog decision to show rdps come put as the worst outcome

The worst outcome for SE, for sure. Now a job's standing is much more visible to the general public. There's no more guesstimating what Trick Attack adds to what a Ninja brings to the party, we all see it plain as day.

It makes class balance discussions much simpler too, both because we see what every job more or less brings to the party, but also it's much harder to pad an individual job's damage. The site should have updated to rDPS/aDPS years ago.

Been silently reading forums for awhile while letting numbers in logs stabalize a bit.

Turns out SAM on average has better rDPS than NIN with all the buffs by a very very minor margin. My point being many NIN were happy with their upgrade, but tons of SAM were complaining massively about not getting enough of a buff with 5.08. I still say that NIN should be capable of more rDPS than any other melee, but at the moment im actually quite content with the melee balance except MNK still needs to be reigned in a bit. 5.1 reworks gonna be scary.

In my mind this below is still the goal.

Pdps melee should be SAM>DRG>MNK>NIN
Rdps should be
NIN>DRG>SAM=MNK(mantra) and by much smaller disparity margins than pdps (like 300 dps max disparity at 75th percentile up)

Ranged are still being shafted harder than they deserve. I do think the ease full mobility provides needs to be taxed some, but it should honestly not be more than 500 dps max in current content. Its too steep right now. Also they need more support too in general. That 10% mitigation is cool, but honestly melee and casters can do a more limited similar effect with their stat breakers on the enemy. And melee have more stay alive tools with bloodbath. BLM even has manaward and I as a NIN main have shade shift. Bard needs more utility. Dnc needs more pdps. Mch as well some.

SMN is also a bit off but still not as bad as RDM. I also dont think raise should be taxed much more than 500 dps max. That being said BLM might need an extremely mild nerf too. Id like to see dps raise removed from casters solely and made more reliant on dps phoenix down usage with high cooldown (600 seconds effectively each dps can use one per fight)

I still think SB nin was overvalued for its trick. In pug setting trick was minimal value. The true value nin brought was shadewalker and smoke screen and how it enabled tanks to stay out of tank stance more. I really do wish we had rdps measurements of that time tho. I remember being told trick was worth 1.5k back in stormblood.

In ShB its worth about 900 we see now, so there is no possible way it was worth 1.5k in SB when damage was lower.

They need to remove trick attack, just like they remove slashing debuff from warrior...ninja too. If Ninja gets closer to personal dps been decent, a lot of people will want ninja again for trick attack

Just reading the forums, and I am noticing a rather cyclical pattern or something of the like. First it’s BLM needs a nerf, then it’s MNK needs a nerf, then it’s DRG needs a nerf. Now we have moved on too “after looking at fflogs, all three need a nerf but BLM needs a mild nerf.” Then it was, “after looking at logs, BLM actually does not need a nerf and MNK should be brought down along with DRG because they bring raid utility buffs and have high PDPS.” Now it’s on to, “NIN still needs more, SAM still needs more because it is apparently not greedy enough, SMN was not addressed enough and is considered a bench warmer now and people don’t like the power difference, RDM got no love and is still seen as a Rez-bot, WHM needs a nerf because it overshadows the other healers so now healers are still raging for not getting any attention in the last patch, WAR is the weakest tank supposedly because it is not doing the most damage out of all the tanks from what I learned from other tank mains so now I am levelling tanks to do some comparisons on my own, DRK is considered a WAR clone with delirium acting like infuriate supposedly, melee DPS/BLM are considered DPS overlords because they get all of the attention when those jobs are not working right.” Forgive me if I missed some other claim that was made but these are all the common threads I see consistently. When will this folly end?! This doesn’t seem like people want jobs fixed. Seems like more complaining and unhappy people who want nothing more than to have things their way. The main problem is that people don’t know what want. Make up your mind! Pick a position and stick too it! Why are people so unhappy? It gets old too play a game and people complain about jobs because they are not living up to their power fantasy. I hate saying this but if you can at least clear the content then you are good to go. Sit back and wait until the DEVs address the DPS discrepancies and then voice your opinions.

You guys are really bent on that ~5% huh

Have fun.