Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Crushnight]

Should MNK be nerfed?
No.
MNK has been fairly dead all during SB and right now its honestly in a good spot to the point many other jobs need buffs to catch up to them instead of nerfing. The DPS requirements of the current savage tier are still fairly tight on underperforming jobs, MNK doesn't single handidly blow any fight out of the water.

Mnk should not be beating Sam or Blm at 95 percentile+ EVER so long as it has Brotherhood and mantra and right now mnk is the only valid reason to buff Blm and that is absurd because we do not need the gulf to get wider between the bottom 5 dps than it already is, the mnk changes brought about unforeseen consequences and well atm i think it does need a nerf not a severe one but does need it, it is too strong and it gives to the party where both blm/sam just don't apart from dmg.

[BarretOblivion]

Mnk should not be beating Sam or Blm at 95 percentile+ EVER so long as it has Brotherhood and mantra and right now mnk is the only valid reason to buff Blm and that is absurd because we do not need the gulf to get wider between the bottom 5 dps than it already is, the mnk changes brought about unforeseen consequences and well atm i think it does need a nerf not a severe one but does need it, it is too strong and it gives to the party where both blm/sam just don't apart from dmg.

So? Then buff SAM. The DPS requirements on these fights are still tight at the moment even with a "meta comp" in the later fights of Leviathan and Titan. Nerfs never happen in this game except before Savage tier releases. We are past that point now so using MNK as a baseline for all other classes is what the team has decided upon clearly. It just means they are going to increase the HP of the next Savage tier to compensate for the buffs.

[Lambdafish]

So? Then buff SAM.

I am so glad you aren't in charge of balancing. The key word is balance.

We aren't just balancing jobs against each other, we are balancing jobs against fights. If Titan savage takes X amount of raid DPS to beat then continually buffing jobs will just make content easier than intended. You can't just bring the bottom up. It has been repeated many times but has fallen on deaf ears: POWER CREEP EXISTS.

[Capn_Goggles]

I am so glad you aren't in charge of balancing. The key word is balance.

We aren't just balancing jobs against each other, we are balancing jobs against fights. If Titan savage takes X amount of raid DPS to beat then continually buffing jobs will just make content easier than intended. You can't just bring the bottom up. It has been repeated many times but has fallen on deaf ears: POWER CREEP EXISTS.

There's no need to be condescending, especially considering that your point is largely nonsense. There's essentially two macro-tiers of jobs at their current power level. Tier 1 consists of the Melee DPS and BLM, with Tier 2 consisting of the Ranged DPS and RDM/SMN. You essentially have an even 50/50 split between "good" jobs and "bad" jobs with 5 in each tier. In each of these macro-tiers the jobs are fairly close to one-another in terms of DPS, but Tier 1 is notably more powerful than Tier 2. Logically speaking, the content must be balanced around a team consisting of the top 4 DPS jobs all being on the same team; meaning that buffing ANY job lower than the four highest performing DPS will have next to zero impact on raid DPS unless it displaces a job in the top 4 in terms of output.

Basically, if tomorrow they jacked the potencies for every Tier 2 job to match Dragoon then you would see basically no improvement in the best clear times because you've simply expanded the power level horizontally rather than vertically. Nerfs should be reserved for jobs that are unintentionally powerful, such as having unexpected synergies or rotations that nobody saw coming, and buffs should be reserved for jobs that have no logical reason to be brought along beyond fun factor like literally any Tier 2 job. Everything else should just fall under quality of life changes and extremely minor balancing tweaks.

[Lambdafish]

There's no need to be condescending, especially considering that your point is largely nonsense. There's essentially two macro-tiers of jobs at their current power level. Tier 1 consists of the Melee DPS and BLM, with Tier 2 consisting of the Ranged DPS and RDM/SMN. You essentially have an even 50/50 split between "good" jobs and "bad" jobs with 5 in each tier. In each of these macro-tiers the jobs are fairly close to one-another in terms of DPS, but Tier 1 is notably more powerful than Tier 2. Logically speaking, the content must be balanced around a team consisting of the top 4 DPS jobs all being on the same team; meaning that buffing ANY job lower than the four highest performing DPS will have next to zero impact on raid DPS unless it displaces a job in the top 4 in terms of output.

Basically, if tomorrow they jacked the potencies for every Tier 2 job to match Dragoon then you would see basically no improvement in the best clear times because you've simply expanded the power level horizontally rather than vertically. Nerfs should be reserved for jobs that are unintentionally powerful, such as having unexpected synergies or rotations that nobody saw coming, and buffs should be reserved for jobs that have no logical reason to be brought along beyond fun factor like literally any Tier 2 job. Everything else should just fall under quality of life changes and extremely minor balancing tweaks.

The thing is though, we can already see my point put into play. I'm unsure if you played the creator tier of patches (patch 3.4/3.5), but the devs messed up really bad when it came to job balance and fight balance. Yes, the difficulty of the raid was really good, and has shaped the game moving forward, but the fight design themselves couldn't keep up with job balance. You might know about "Skip soar", but it was more than that, Cruise Chaser in particular could be completely broken if you had the right comp to push enough DPS out.

We are already starting to see this with fights in Eden if you bring the right comp, and buffing jobs will simply make skipping phases happen more and more easily, particular as people get more gear. This isn't about certain jobs being too weak, its about jobs being both too powerful and too weak. This isn't a problem right now, but will be if MNK is not addressed.

You are right that tier 2 should be buffed by a large margin, and I agree, but with MNK in the state that it is now, the tier 1 jobs also need to be rebalanced so that jobs like SAM and BLM are more powerful than MNK (Which the original point was about FYI, I never mentioned Tier 2 jobs), what kind of effect would that have on fights and the state of savage as whole? Personally, I get creator flashbacks.

As I said, power creep exists.

[Capn_Goggles]

You are right that tier 2 should be buffed by a large margin, and I agree, but with MNK in the state that it is now, the tier 1 jobs also need to be rebalanced so that jobs like SAM and BLM are more powerful than MNK (Which the original point was about FYI, I never mentioned Tier 2 jobs), what kind of effect would that have on fights and the state of savage as whole? Personally, I get creator flashbacks.

As I said, power creep exists.

Oh, I totally agree that monk shouldn't be pushing out the same personal DPS or better than BLM/SAM while also offering a ton of party utility. They kind of put themselves in a crappy position with these knee-jerk monk changes because scaling them back after the fact will make them seem incompetent. Buffing jobs to compete with MNK is not the right approach because in my opinion it's the only job right now that is just too strong in a category of jobs that is already notably stronger than ranged dps or casters barring BLM. I think the right approach in this case is scaling monk back slightly while bringing SAM closer to BLM's level.

However, your statement of "you can't just bring the bottom up" is far too open to misinterpretation in that case, because when I think "bottom" I'm thinking the absolute dregs of the DPS charts where dancer is currently wallowing in sewage.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I apologise for the vagueness, what I was calling "the bottom" was SAM and to some extent SMN and RDM. To me the ranged role is a different scenario entirely, and I really don't want them buffed in damage at all.

It's highly off topic, but I would rather they give BRD back foes, give MCH back dismantle, and add refresh and palisade back in as role actions. Then once that is done, adjust the DPS within the role itself. That will give the role a tonne more identity and worth within fights beyond them simply competing with MNK, DRG, and BLM in damage.