Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Mnk is busted dude just admitted.
No matter how you slice it. Mnk is way overturned, even people that raid at the highest level think so like Mr.happy.
Why you think every world race took a mnk.

Just because they have rng doesn't mean anything. Their rng isn't even that low, it's like what? 70%.

Stop trying to defend this broken ass job.
It needs to be nerfed.

Not only is their rdps high, their Pdps too. It rivals blm.
But wait! It totally depends because "rng"!

If you bothered to look at FFLOGS you'd see that MNK is below BLM except 1 fight which has no positional requirement if not for the fact Levi and 50% of titan require no positionals it becomes pretty apparent that MNK would not be at the top, but BLM would be across all fights, this savage raid tier enables MNK to excel where it would usually not. It's lower on everything else at the highest level of play. Remember the old quote from Yoshi-p? "Job performance may vary on player skill" well BLM is the top dps. At lower levels of play MNK becomes the best. Funny, you say Mr Happy says MNK is busted yet ignore that Xeno says it doesn't need changes on streams :think:

The crit chance is 70% to gain a chakra, but the raid dps (which is what we're talking about here) is 30% on only weaponskills and synergizes poorly with PLD. I'm not saying Monk should be the top of personal dps BLM and SAM rightfully should be. I'm saying MNK doesn't need a nerf and SAM needs a buff. MNK's personal is lower than BLM, but given it's RNG and comp dependency it should be top when accounting for it's raid DPS. Not sure how people don't understand that? It should be 3rd personal DPS tied with MCH and 1st on raid dps.

If we imagine BH brings say 400dps. Mnk Should do 15,000~pdps and SAM should do 15,200~ a pure dps should never outweigh being a better choice over a support DPS. Again support DPS rely on good groups to actually get the most out of their buffs. SAM being 500 below DRG and 750 below MNK isn't MNK's fault... it's the devs fault for poorly balancing SAM and needs further buffs.

I'm not even defending the job, I'm just saying it doesn't need nerfs. In your ideal scenario then you'd nerf MNK even though DRG is only 300dps behind it. Then what? Cry for DRG nerfs?
If I was to list how dps should be spread throughout the group it would be:
MNK 1st in rDPS / 3rd in pDPS
BLM 2nd - 3rd rDPS / 1st in pDPS
DRG 2nd - 3rd in rDPS / 4th in pDPS
SAM 4th in rDPS / 2nd pDPS
MCH around MNK pDPS.
NIN similar to DRG dps.
DNC and RDM around SAM levels of rDPS. Accounting for RNG elements
SMN and BRD just below SAM rDPS.

I would have all jobs within 800~dps from best to worst. As opposed to the current 1.7k~ gap between MNK/BLM and DNC.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=95

Again, if people really clamor for MNK nerfs then look at the bigger picture and realise that MNK, BLM, DRG and SAM are all better relative to every other job by a long way.

If you take away MNK's brotherhood 450-480 in a good comp. It's still 300dps above SAM. Surely the problem is that SAM needs a 3% buff to put it above MNK's personal DPS.

Lastly, yes RNG and composition does matter? Why pretend it doesn't? The fact that DNC for example can have up to ~500-600dps variance just from combo procs, similar to RDM (and also similar to MNK I may add) gone just because comp and RNG is ridiculous. Wonder how the Bard's felt about being crit and rng reliant for procs (I can tell you they hated it because the DPS variance from getting bad rng was bad for personal dps and bad for raid dps) there is a reason MNK's wanted the rng bs gone with ShB. But here we are, at least we're compensated a little.

Don't cherry pick my arguement next time either, you say rng means nothing, but didn't even acknowledge party comp also plays a factor. All of it plays a factor.

[xxvaynxx]

If you bothered to look at FFLOGS you'd see that MNK is below BLM except 1 fight which has no positional requirement if not for the fact Levi and 50% of titan require no positionals it becomes pretty apparent that MNK would not be at the top, but BLM would be across all fights, this savage raid tier enables MNK to excel where it would usually not. It's lower on everything else at the highest level of play. Remember the old quote from Yoshi-p? "Job performance may vary on player skill" well BLM is the top dps. At lower levels of play MNK becomes the best. Funny, you say Mr Happy says MNK is busted yet ignore that Xeno says it doesn't need changes on streams :think:

The crit chance is 70% to gain a chakra, but the raid dps (which is what we're talking about here) is 30% on only weaponskills and synergizes poorly with PLD. I'm not saying Monk should be the top of personal dps BLM and SAM rightfully should be. I'm saying MNK doesn't need a nerf and SAM needs a buff. MNK's personal is lower than BLM, but given it's RNG and comp dependency it should be top when accounting for it's raid DPS. Not sure how people don't understand that? It should be 3rd personal DPS tied with MCH and 1st on raid dps.

If we imagine BH brings say 400dps. Mnk Should do 15,000~pdps and SAM should do 15,200~ a pure dps should never outweigh being a better choice over a support DPS. Again support DPS rely on good groups to actually get the most out of their buffs. SAM being 500 below DRG and 750 below MNK isn't MNK's fault... it's the devs fault for poorly balancing SAM and needs further buffs.

I'm not even defending the job, I'm just saying it doesn't need nerfs. In your ideal scenario then you'd nerf MNK even though DRG is only 300dps behind it. Then what? Cry for DRG nerfs?
If I was to list how dps should be spread throughout the group it would be:
MNK 1st in rDPS / 3rd in pDPS
BLM 2nd - 3rd rDPS / 1st in pDPS
DRG 2nd - 3rd in rDPS / 4th in pDPS
SAM 4th in rDPS / 2nd pDPS
MCH around MNK pDPS.
NIN similar to DRG dps.
DNC and RDM around SAM levels of rDPS. Accounting for RNG elements
SMN and BRD just below SAM rDPS.

I would have all jobs within 800~dps from best to worst. As opposed to the current 1.7k~ gap between MNK/BLM and DNC.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=95

Again, if people really clamor for MNK nerfs then look at the bigger picture and realise that MNK, BLM, DRG and SAM are all better relative to every other job by a long way.

If you take away MNK's brotherhood 450-480 in a good comp. It's still 300dps above SAM. Surely the problem is that SAM needs a 3% buff to put it above MNK's personal DPS.

Lastly, yes RNG and composition does matter? Why pretend it doesn't? The fact that DNC for example can have up to ~500-600dps variance just from combo procs, similar to RDM (and also similar to MNK I may add) gone just because comp and RNG is ridiculous. Wonder how the Bard's felt about being crit and rng reliant for procs (I can tell you they hated it because the DPS variance from getting bad rng was bad for personal dps and bad for raid dps) there is a reason MNK's wanted the rng bs gone with ShB. But here we are, at least we're compensated a little.

Don't cherry pick my arguement next time either, you say rng means nothing, but didn't even acknowledge party comp also plays a factor. All of it plays a factor.

I think its "you" that actually needs to take a trip to fflogs.
If you bothered to LOOK, you would see a mnk is actually beating a blm in eden prime too, in pDPS and Rdps.
and before you say (well they might have better gear) nope, both have full 470.

Mnk shouldn't be beating BLM in ANYTHING not rdps. You SERIOUSLY. Think that's right? if so there is no point and continuing this debate. I see you main mnk so it actually make sense you're defending it.

Also I said mnk "rivals" meaning (they're close or equal to blm dps) and also beats it in some cases. I didn't flat out say they're outdpsing.
I feel you're checking the statistics but not know what you're actually looking at. So how about just checking the actual players?

Are you really saying the blm's ranking the highest in the world are not as good as the mnks? Seriously, get that tired ass meme out of here. "Job performance may vary on player skill"

Again, RNG doesn't mean a thing.
Blm also has RNG but that doesn't mean anything, they're still powerful, just how mnk is still powerful.
Just like how a blm can get thundercloud happy, mnk can get chakra happy.

Problem is mnk shouldn't be doing the Damage it is, you keep talking about how more or less rng should keep them from getting a nerf when that's not the case. You're not going to convince anybody that knows how busted MNK is.

As for the other rng jobs, they're no where near as strong as mnk. They have strong burst and that's about it, they won't getting to blm numbers.
Mnk in itself is already powerful without rng, you make it sound like mnk is weak without FBC and BH.

Also if mnk is nerfed I wouldn't be "crying" drg nerfs because drg's are not beating sam's personal dps.


About party comp, you can't always guarantee you'll get those comps. But that just proves then mnk does need a nerf even more if a certain comp pushs them over the edge that much.

Before I end this, let me clear up what I mean when I say rng doesn't matter.
Lets take bard from SB, bard in itself wasn't too strong when it didn't have its rng so it balanced out. When they get get crt happy their dps spiked but it was never to the level it was beating things like melee's(unless it was alphascape but those fights were very not melee friendly) and blm.

The problem with mnk is they're already strong without needing rng, like really strong. Now lets add that rng that makes them stronger to a already strong job and we have what we have now, a busted overtuned job.
Instead of a nerf,how about making charka could build up overtime? like how whm works.

My issue isn't about what they main, and I certainly don't care what you main either. My issue is that it's a pretty awful mindset to even have, and it's coming from a place that has no interest in the actual health of DPS in the game. It flat out sucks as an opinion, unlike actual Samurai DPS, which is still pretty freakin' great right now.

I could just as easily say "There is NO REASON EVER for SAMURAI to out dps MONK, EVER" with the same "conviction" and cheap insults thrown at other players voicing their opinions they have in this thread, and it would be just as ridiculously stupid. Doesn't matter what you main, the moment you toss out "They could buff what I love, but I won't be happy if other things are still strong," you don't have an opinion on game mechanics worth listening to.

You're not understanding what I mean.
I said buffing samurai more wouldn't mean anything because mnk is still powerful, meaning now drg is now too weak and so is nin(again)
It would just mess up melee balance even more, people would just take samurai and mnk now.

Melee balance is crap right now but at least people are taking any melee atm.

[Rakeesh]

Oh boy. That "trivialize content" thing again.

There are enough strong jobs right now to fill an entire group and they aren't steamrolling through Eden Savage. Buffing the other jobs to their level won't trivialize anything because there's a limit on how many people you can take with you. So if everyone does around the same damage it won't matter if you take a

MNK BLM DRG DRG

or

SAM RDM BRD BRD

You can already do one of those and they aren't steamrolling through current content.
So what would be the problem if the second group was around as strong?

And future content can be balanced around everyone doing around equal damage.

The only thing that nerfing things would do is disrupt people going through Savage now with their current setups.

Also as I said earlier in this thread, what's the point of nerfing jobs when the enrage timers are so tight this time around?

Maybe... just maybe... they keep buffing jobs each hotfix patch because the fights are tuned around the level of damage the top DPS are doing and the lower DPS jobs are currently undertuned and they can't fix every job at once in a hotfix patch.

[Capn_Goggles]

The only thing that nerfing things would do is disrupt people going through Savage now with their current setups.

Also as I said earlier in this thread, what's the point of nerfing jobs when the enrage timers are so tight this time around?

I definitely agree with this. Nerfs should be reserved for *unintended* power levels and things that just completely throw stuff out of whack for no valid reason. BLM is fine where it's at, MNK was probably unintentional to a certain degree and may get a small nerf at some point, SAM needs buffs to be near BLM, and MCH/BRD/DNC/SMN/RDM need to be brought up to a viable level.

This is the most reasonable course of action because as was stated, when you already have enough "overtuned" jobs to form a full party composition and the game is balanced with them in mind, it means they are not overtuned but that other jobs are undertuned. Buffing the low performance jobs wouldn't create power creep as the level of power has been there since the start and merely extends the number of viable party compositions instead of just revenge-nerfing jobs because they stuffed your job of choice in the shed.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

According to SSS MNK is meant to be above SAM. As it always had a higher dps requirement, evem DRG did iirc. So it being unintentionally high doesn't fit with what was already established. Even before MNK buffs. Nonetheless that's not to say that SAM should be below MNK in pDPS.

I fully agree with what Rakeesh said; at this point nerfing jobs does nothing except hinder groups that are using said jobs.

Furthermore the raid has been cleared in min ilvl so it's not like a power creep would have any impact on this raiding tier as it's been done and cleared day 1. Any future content should be balanced around buffs. What we don't want to see though is 2 similar jobs being buffed back and forth until they are so OP and destroy the competition (mch, brd in HW). I think the devs will have learned their lesson on that one though.

[Metalwrath]

According to SSS MNK is meant to be above SAM. As it always had a higher dps requirement, evem DRG did iirc. So it being unintentionally high doesn't fit with what was already established. Even before MNK buffs. Nonetheless that's not to say that SAM should be below MNK in pDPS.

The problem right now is that monk has a much lower dps requirement than it used to.It's quite easy to keep up gl and with pb,low true north cd and the new riddle of earth you dont even need to hit positionals most of the time.If anything its probably now the lowest skill ceiling of all the melee dps.
SE didnt listen to the long time monk players and instead interpreted it as *doing positionals is too hard* so they gave monk extra ways to avoid useing postionals on top of boosting the damage to make up for having to do positionals.doing both things contradicts itself.It should have been one or the other and not both.