Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[IruruCece]

... what a person mains has no bearing on their opinion if said opinion is, in fact, accurate? She's right. Buffing Samurai would just create more problems because Monk shouldn't be pulling ahead of Black Mage. And I don't main any of them, by the way.

My issue isn't about what they main, and I certainly don't care what you main either. My issue is that it's a pretty awful mindset to even have, and it's coming from a place that has no interest in the actual health of DPS in the game. It flat out sucks as an opinion, unlike actual Samurai DPS, which is still pretty freakin' great right now.

I could just as easily say "There is NO REASON EVER for SAMURAI to out dps MONK, EVER" with the same "conviction" and cheap insults thrown at other players voicing their opinions they have in this thread, and it would be just as ridiculously stupid. Doesn't matter what you main, the moment you toss out "They could buff what I love, but I won't be happy if other things are still strong," you don't have an opinion on game mechanics worth listening to.

[CrashofZenki]

My issue isn't about what they main, and I certainly don't care what you main either. My issue is that it's a pretty awful mindset to even have, and it's coming from a place that has no interest in the actual health of DPS in the game. It flat out sucks as an opinion, unlike actual Samurai DPS, which is still pretty freakin' great right now.

I could just as easily say "There is NO REASON EVER for SAMURAI to out dps MONK, EVER" with the same "conviction" and cheap insults thrown at other players voicing their opinions they have in this thread, and it would be just as ridiculously stupid. Doesn't matter what you main, the moment you toss out "They could buff what I love, but I won't be happy if other things are still strong," you don't have an opinion on game mechanics worth listening to.

In my honest opinion of a healthy DPS balance, SAM needs to be higher than MNK in Personal DPS, but MNK should be higher, but close to SAM in Raid DPS. And that would also apply to other Utility DPS vs non-utility DPS, in their respected field. i/e Melee bracket, Ranged bracket, Caster bracket

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Mnk is busted dude just admitted.
No matter how you slice it. Mnk is way overturned, even people that raid at the highest level think so like Mr.happy.
Why you think every world race took a mnk.

Just because they have rng doesn't mean anything. Their rng isn't even that low, it's like what? 70%.

Stop trying to defend this broken ass job.
It needs to be nerfed.

Not only is their rdps high, their Pdps too. It rivals blm.
But wait! It totally depends because "rng"!

If you bothered to look at FFLOGS you'd see that MNK is below BLM except 1 fight which has no positional requirement if not for the fact Levi and 50% of titan require no positionals it becomes pretty apparent that MNK would not be at the top, but BLM would be across all fights, this savage raid tier enables MNK to excel where it would usually not. It's lower on everything else at the highest level of play. Remember the old quote from Yoshi-p? "Job performance may vary on player skill" well BLM is the top dps. At lower levels of play MNK becomes the best. Funny, you say Mr Happy says MNK is busted yet ignore that Xeno says it doesn't need changes on streams :think:

The crit chance is 70% to gain a chakra, but the raid dps (which is what we're talking about here) is 30% on only weaponskills and synergizes poorly with PLD. I'm not saying Monk should be the top of personal dps BLM and SAM rightfully should be. I'm saying MNK doesn't need a nerf and SAM needs a buff. MNK's personal is lower than BLM, but given it's RNG and comp dependency it should be top when accounting for it's raid DPS. Not sure how people don't understand that? It should be 3rd personal DPS tied with MCH and 1st on raid dps.

If we imagine BH brings say 400dps. Mnk Should do 15,000~pdps and SAM should do 15,200~ a pure dps should never outweigh being a better choice over a support DPS. Again support DPS rely on good groups to actually get the most out of their buffs. SAM being 500 below DRG and 750 below MNK isn't MNK's fault... it's the devs fault for poorly balancing SAM and needs further buffs.

I'm not even defending the job, I'm just saying it doesn't need nerfs. In your ideal scenario then you'd nerf MNK even though DRG is only 300dps behind it. Then what? Cry for DRG nerfs?
If I was to list how dps should be spread throughout the group it would be:
MNK 1st in rDPS / 3rd in pDPS
BLM 2nd - 3rd rDPS / 1st in pDPS
DRG 2nd - 3rd in rDPS / 4th in pDPS
SAM 4th in rDPS / 2nd pDPS
MCH around MNK pDPS.
NIN similar to DRG dps.
DNC and RDM around SAM levels of rDPS. Accounting for RNG elements
SMN and BRD just below SAM rDPS.

I would have all jobs within 800~dps from best to worst. As opposed to the current 1.7k~ gap between MNK/BLM and DNC.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=95

Again, if people really clamor for MNK nerfs then look at the bigger picture and realise that MNK, BLM, DRG and SAM are all better relative to every other job by a long way.

If you take away MNK's brotherhood 450-480 in a good comp. It's still 300dps above SAM. Surely the problem is that SAM needs a 3% buff to put it above MNK's personal DPS.

Lastly, yes RNG and composition does matter? Why pretend it doesn't? The fact that DNC for example can have up to ~500-600dps variance just from combo procs, similar to RDM (and also similar to MNK I may add) gone just because comp and RNG is ridiculous. Wonder how the Bard's felt about being crit and rng reliant for procs (I can tell you they hated it because the DPS variance from getting bad rng was bad for personal dps and bad for raid dps) there is a reason MNK's wanted the rng bs gone with ShB. But here we are, at least we're compensated a little.

Don't cherry pick my arguement next time either, you say rng means nothing, but didn't even acknowledge party comp also plays a factor. All of it plays a factor.

[TaiyouSeishin]

snip

You are ignoring Mantra i see. The fact you have that other utility means you shouldnt be top rdps at all. Because support type utilities are nornally taxed with no return. By that notion mnk shouldnt be top rdps at all.

That said you also have a weaker dps utility (probably because its a part of your pdps as well) and your weaker utility shouldnt be given higher value over a stronger utility, cuz then wjat is the point of that utility being stronger?

[xxvaynxx]

If you bothered to look at FFLOGS you'd see that MNK is below BLM except 1 fight which has no positional requirement if not for the fact Levi and 50% of titan require no positionals it becomes pretty apparent that MNK would not be at the top, but BLM would be across all fights, this savage raid tier enables MNK to excel where it would usually not. It's lower on everything else at the highest level of play. Remember the old quote from Yoshi-p? "Job performance may vary on player skill" well BLM is the top dps. At lower levels of play MNK becomes the best. Funny, you say Mr Happy says MNK is busted yet ignore that Xeno says it doesn't need changes on streams :think:

The crit chance is 70% to gain a chakra, but the raid dps (which is what we're talking about here) is 30% on only weaponskills and synergizes poorly with PLD. I'm not saying Monk should be the top of personal dps BLM and SAM rightfully should be. I'm saying MNK doesn't need a nerf and SAM needs a buff. MNK's personal is lower than BLM, but given it's RNG and comp dependency it should be top when accounting for it's raid DPS. Not sure how people don't understand that? It should be 3rd personal DPS tied with MCH and 1st on raid dps.

If we imagine BH brings say 400dps. Mnk Should do 15,000~pdps and SAM should do 15,200~ a pure dps should never outweigh being a better choice over a support DPS. Again support DPS rely on good groups to actually get the most out of their buffs. SAM being 500 below DRG and 750 below MNK isn't MNK's fault... it's the devs fault for poorly balancing SAM and needs further buffs.

I'm not even defending the job, I'm just saying it doesn't need nerfs. In your ideal scenario then you'd nerf MNK even though DRG is only 300dps behind it. Then what? Cry for DRG nerfs?
If I was to list how dps should be spread throughout the group it would be:
MNK 1st in rDPS / 3rd in pDPS
BLM 2nd - 3rd rDPS / 1st in pDPS
DRG 2nd - 3rd in rDPS / 4th in pDPS
SAM 4th in rDPS / 2nd pDPS
MCH around MNK pDPS.
NIN similar to DRG dps.
DNC and RDM around SAM levels of rDPS. Accounting for RNG elements
SMN and BRD just below SAM rDPS.

I would have all jobs within 800~dps from best to worst. As opposed to the current 1.7k~ gap between MNK/BLM and DNC.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=95

Again, if people really clamor for MNK nerfs then look at the bigger picture and realise that MNK, BLM, DRG and SAM are all better relative to every other job by a long way.

If you take away MNK's brotherhood 450-480 in a good comp. It's still 300dps above SAM. Surely the problem is that SAM needs a 3% buff to put it above MNK's personal DPS.

Lastly, yes RNG and composition does matter? Why pretend it doesn't? The fact that DNC for example can have up to ~500-600dps variance just from combo procs, similar to RDM (and also similar to MNK I may add) gone just because comp and RNG is ridiculous. Wonder how the Bard's felt about being crit and rng reliant for procs (I can tell you they hated it because the DPS variance from getting bad rng was bad for personal dps and bad for raid dps) there is a reason MNK's wanted the rng bs gone with ShB. But here we are, at least we're compensated a little.

Don't cherry pick my arguement next time either, you say rng means nothing, but didn't even acknowledge party comp also plays a factor. All of it plays a factor.

I think its "you" that actually needs to take a trip to fflogs.
If you bothered to LOOK, you would see a mnk is actually beating a blm in eden prime too, in pDPS and Rdps.
and before you say (well they might have better gear) nope, both have full 470.

Mnk shouldn't be beating BLM in ANYTHING not rdps. You SERIOUSLY. Think that's right? if so there is no point and continuing this debate. I see you main mnk so it actually make sense you're defending it.

Also I said mnk "rivals" meaning (they're close or equal to blm dps) and also beats it in some cases. I didn't flat out say they're outdpsing.
I feel you're checking the statistics but not know what you're actually looking at. So how about just checking the actual players?

Are you really saying the blm's ranking the highest in the world are not as good as the mnks? Seriously, get that tired ass meme out of here. "Job performance may vary on player skill"

Again, RNG doesn't mean a thing.
Blm also has RNG but that doesn't mean anything, they're still powerful, just how mnk is still powerful.
Just like how a blm can get thundercloud happy, mnk can get chakra happy.

Problem is mnk shouldn't be doing the Damage it is, you keep talking about how more or less rng should keep them from getting a nerf when that's not the case. You're not going to convince anybody that knows how busted MNK is.

As for the other rng jobs, they're no where near as strong as mnk. They have strong burst and that's about it, they won't getting to blm numbers.
Mnk in itself is already powerful without rng, you make it sound like mnk is weak without FBC and BH.

Also if mnk is nerfed I wouldn't be "crying" drg nerfs because drg's are not beating sam's personal dps.


About party comp, you can't always guarantee you'll get those comps. But that just proves then mnk does need a nerf even more if a certain comp pushs them over the edge that much.

Before I end this, let me clear up what I mean when I say rng doesn't matter.
Lets take bard from SB, bard in itself wasn't too strong when it didn't have its rng so it balanced out. When they get get crt happy their dps spiked but it was never to the level it was beating things like melee's(unless it was alphascape but those fights were very not melee friendly) and blm.

The problem with mnk is they're already strong without needing rng, like really strong. Now lets add that rng that makes them stronger to a already strong job and we have what we have now, a busted overtuned job.
Instead of a nerf,how about making charka could build up overtime? like how whm works.

My issue isn't about what they main, and I certainly don't care what you main either. My issue is that it's a pretty awful mindset to even have, and it's coming from a place that has no interest in the actual health of DPS in the game. It flat out sucks as an opinion, unlike actual Samurai DPS, which is still pretty freakin' great right now.

I could just as easily say "There is NO REASON EVER for SAMURAI to out dps MONK, EVER" with the same "conviction" and cheap insults thrown at other players voicing their opinions they have in this thread, and it would be just as ridiculously stupid. Doesn't matter what you main, the moment you toss out "They could buff what I love, but I won't be happy if other things are still strong," you don't have an opinion on game mechanics worth listening to.

You're not understanding what I mean.
I said buffing samurai more wouldn't mean anything because mnk is still powerful, meaning now drg is now too weak and so is nin(again)
It would just mess up melee balance even more, people would just take samurai and mnk now.

Melee balance is crap right now but at least people are taking any melee atm.

[IruruCece]

You are ignoring Mantra i see. The fact you have that other utility means you shouldnt be top rdps at all. Because support type utilities are nornally taxed with no return. By that notion mnk shouldnt be top rdps at all.

That said you also have a weaker dps utility (probably because its a part of your pdps as well) and your weaker utility shouldnt be given higher value over a stronger utility, cuz then wjat is the point of that utility being stronger?

Mantra's "utility", much like Smn's ability to Raise, should not be something used to tax either job if they aren't going to address the mechanical complexity of either one. Even after taking away our tornado kick openers with the perfect balance nerf, and essentially forcing us to try and use simpler rotations to get that Bootshine damage, our openers are still some of the busiest in the game, and Smn's have been complaining about how much effort they have to put into their jobs to remain competitive for years at this point. This is even after True North got charges and Riddle of Earth got the absurd buff it did. The former is another button to add to an already very busy rotation, while the latter is something we have to take damage after activating in order to get the most out of it. Both feel like band-aids to try and address the fact that yes, our positional requirements ARE pretty demanding in raid environments, and they make us a lot busier than most other melee dps not named Nin.

It's a similar issue that you ought to be familiar with since you have a Nin at 80, where trick attack has been stupidly used by some members of the community to justify putting your job near the bottom of the DPS heap. Oftentimes, these arguments have been made in complete ignorance of the sheer mechanical complexity for what you need to do just to not only be competitive, but also just to provide a strong contribution to your team outside of Trick. Heck, you're in another thread essentially calling for better Nin pdps, and your job has very good mechanical reasons to justify buffs.

You're not understanding what I mean.

I understand perfectly what you mean, It's just exceedingly bad and dumb. Get outta here with that "RNG doesn't mean anything" and "i see u main JOB im mad about" if you want to be taken seriously.

[Misutoraru]

Judging from your avatar, I think I found my twin sister. Or you're my gender bent doppleganger.

current gap is too large, either bring down those top job or we need to bring up a lot of bottom job
anyway dont want to jump into this MNK should nerf or not fight
but I think
Doppleganger more likely? As she is a moonkeeper, and you are sunseeker

[TaiyouSeishin]

It's a similar issue that you ought to be familiar with since you have a Nin at 80, where trick attack has been stupidly used by some members of the community to justify putting your job near the bottom of the DPS heap. Oftentimes, these arguments have been made in complete ignorance of the sheer mechanical complexity for what you need to do just to not only be competitive, but also just to provide a strong contribution to your team outside of Trick. Heck, you're in another thread essentially calling for better Nin pdps, and your job has very good mechanical reasons to justify buffs.

I tend to disagree with "taxes" half the time to begin with (especially how high the range tax is), but understand why they are there. It matters not how useful the ability is. It dont matter how complex it is (sadly) the point is for everything you provide you do less of something else.

As for me in other threads all i want, is for my "utility" to not be neutralized. Trick does upwards of 900 to 1k? Then top damage tax shouldnt exceed that amount.

Do i think mnk needs to be the bottom? No, personally i think mnk should be the second strongest pdps of the melee, but not top rdps. There are dps that do less pdps than you at the cost of stronger utility, if that stronger utility doesnt show, what point is there for them? (Kinda why i dislike dps-enhancing-utility)

[Miminming]

I dunno as much as i hate nerf the power creep is getting out of control... monk mantra is as op as hell, especially in e4s phase 3, the existance of monk is bliss there...

Sooooooo... yes nerf it, the dev is becoming wayyyyy to scaredy cay for their own good this time

[Rakeesh]

Oh boy. That "trivialize content" thing again.

There are enough strong jobs right now to fill an entire group and they aren't steamrolling through Eden Savage. Buffing the other jobs to their level won't trivialize anything because there's a limit on how many people you can take with you. So if everyone does around the same damage it won't matter if you take a

MNK BLM DRG DRG

or

SAM RDM BRD BRD

You can already do one of those and they aren't steamrolling through current content.
So what would be the problem if the second group was around as strong?

And future content can be balanced around everyone doing around equal damage.

The only thing that nerfing things would do is disrupt people going through Savage now with their current setups.

Also as I said earlier in this thread, what's the point of nerfing jobs when the enrage timers are so tight this time around?

Maybe... just maybe... they keep buffing jobs each hotfix patch because the fights are tuned around the level of damage the top DPS are doing and the lower DPS jobs are currently undertuned and they can't fix every job at once in a hotfix patch.