Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[TaiyouSeishin]

Except MNK is not top? At the highest level of play BLM is barring one fight. Supportive roles should naturally be higher when accounting raid dps otherwise what would the point in bringing a support over a pure? Case in point with BLM currently. Monk is not like the other supports however, as stated it is completely tied to composition and rng. One could argue that Battle litany is also RNG, but crits are valued a lot higher than flat damage % (50~% extra damage). If you placed monk in the worst comp, it would be about the same dps as SAM, hence SAM needs further damage.

This discussion is like a rewind in time to HW where MNK could pull 3k but DRG and NIN did more raid dps. A selfish DPS should not do more raid damage than a supportive DPS, which is how dps is sorted on FFLOGs otherwise there's no need to take one. And again MNK's personal and raid dps are tied to rng and party comp. Take monk out of the optimal comp and it is no longer below BLM but below DRG.

The other jobs need potency buffs, or you nerf BLM, DRG and MNK. But jus MNK on its own? No.

It was said in direct reference to "mnk" should be top. I dont argue that utility needs to have a benefit, why take a utility that basically doesnt do anything, but that is also dependant on the type of utility provided. If all you have is dps increase utility, fine, but if you have a more supportive utility, that is taxed without refund, look at smn and rdm with a raise and a heal. (Im not gonna jump into the debate on wether they are taxed fairly or not it was just a reference)

Regardless of how dependant or situational utilities are, they are still taxed with everyone else... so...

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

In some fights MNK loses the lead to BLM only at 95th percentile and in Leviathan (as you said) MNK just leads the rDPS chart for all percentiles.

And that could arguably be down to player skill that BLM overtakes MNK. I'm of the personal opinion that jobs should be balanced by their skill ceilings, not the floor. So generally looking at lower % doesn't represent optimal play and is hard to judge. Though I do think MNK is generally a straight forward job it does have its intricacies and problems.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t&dpstype=pdps

Looking at the adjusted DPS (which removes a Monk's raid contribution) it is only 200 dps above samurai at the top level of play. That 200dps is about 3-4 forbidden chakras, which is where this problem for MNK comes, it's personal dps is directly tied to it's raid dps. How do you play around RNG that is tied to raid dps? Except DNC with Saber Dance, no other job has raid dps tied to personal dps.

This is why I believe that MNK is not overtuned and more-so that other jobs need to be brought up. SAM should be another 200-300 dps higher for the high end. Putting it on par with MNK. If MNK gets bad RNG, SAM ends up higher. Which i think is fair. In regards to other jobs though, SMN and RDM should both be higher. The res tax they both suffer from at this point is unwarranted given the tightness of dps checks when going for first kills support jobs should be around DRG levels of rDPS and Pure DPS Jobs should be around MNK. I don't believe BLM should be such an outlier when initially it was high dps with low mobility, nowadays it has high on demand mobility when needed with procs, instand casts, triplecast and swiftcast.

TL: DR i believe MNK should be the top support DPS given it's RNG elements tied to its personal and raid contribution. But I do think other jobs need to be brought in line with DRG as the standard for support DPS and MNK as the standard for selfish DPS.

If you're going to nerf MNK then subsequently BLM, DRG and SAM to a lesser degree need to all be nerfed, not just one but at that point, why not just buff other jobs. Buffing has a more positive psychology attached to it as opposed to nerfing them all.

[Xan_Kriegor]

And that could arguably be down to player skill that BLM overtakes MNK. I'm of the personal opinion that jobs should be balanced by their skill ceilings, not the floor. So generally looking at lower % doesn't represent optimal play and is hard to judge. Though I do think MNK is generally a straight forward job it does have its intricacies and problems.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t&dpstype=pdps

Looking at the adjusted DPS (which removes a Monk's raid contribution) it is only 200 dps above samurai at the top level of play. That 200dps is about 3-4 forbidden chakras, which is where this problem for MNK comes, it's personal dps is directly tied to it's raid dps. How do you play around RNG that is tied to raid dps? Except DNC with Saber Dance, no other job has raid dps tied to personal dps.

This is why I believe that MNK is not overtuned and more-so that other jobs need to be brought up. SAM should be another 200-300 dps higher for the high end. Putting it on par with MNK. If MNK gets bad RNG, SAM ends up higher. Which i think is fair. In regards to other jobs though, SMN and RDM should both be higher. The res tax they both suffer from at this point is unwarranted given the tightness of dps checks when going for first kills support jobs should be around DRG levels of rDPS and Pure DPS Jobs should be around MNK. I don't believe BLM should be such an outlier when initially it was high dps with low mobility, nowadays it has high on demand mobility when needed with procs, instand casts, triplecast and swiftcast.

TL: DR i believe MNK should be the top support DPS given it's RNG elements tied to its personal and raid contribution. But I do think other jobs need to be brought in line with DRG as the standard for support DPS and MNK as the standard for selfish DPS.

If you're going to nerf MNK then subsequently BLM, DRG and SAM to a lesser degree need to all be nerfed, not just one but at that point, why not just buff other jobs. Buffing has a more positive psychology attached to it as opposed to nerfing them all.

I disagree with your points related to the RNG comp elements. If we sum up all the parses this effect has already been taken into account. However, I do agree with your conclusion. The main balance problem right now is related to the difference from BLM + Melees with the other DPS. Before 5.0.8, I thought the best solution for this would be to nerf the rDPS from BLM, MNK, DRG and SAM (in a lesser degree) to the other ones, since there were six jobs with small rDPS differences.

However, now that SAM and NIN have been brought up almost to the Tier 1 rDPSers, I think it may be better to just buff the other ones to this level too. I still think that MNK and BLM are slightly ahead from the other top contenders (DRG, SAM, NIN), however this difference is less significant than the gap between BLM+Melee against the others. The problem of just buffing everyone is the power creep. At the expansion launch, only DRG and BLM seemed OP, but patch after patch other DPSers received buffs. This is bad, since it relaxes the DPS checks on fights, making the content easier to clear and also turning the DPS from tankers and healers even less relevant in the global scheme.

I do think that all DPS Jobs could not have a difference higher than 5% or 600 rDPS. After achieving this, we can discuss about Ress, mobility taxes and other aspects to change the DPSers ranks within this rDPS interval.

[CrashofZenki]

Doesnt the top MNKs cheat tho? I hear they use 3rd Party programs to check server tick to exploit Anatman.

[Kabooa]

Doesnt the top MNKs cheat tho? I hear they use 3rd Party programs to check server tick to exploit Anatman.

Regen isn't a 3rd party program.

[xxvaynxx]

And that could arguably be down to player skill that BLM overtakes MNK. I'm of the personal opinion that jobs should be balanced by their skill ceilings, not the floor. So generally looking at lower % doesn't represent optimal play and is hard to judge. Though I do think MNK is generally a straight forward job it does have its intricacies and problems.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t&dpstype=pdps

Looking at the adjusted DPS (which removes a Monk's raid contribution) it is only 200 dps above samurai at the top level of play. That 200dps is about 3-4 forbidden chakras, which is where this problem for MNK comes, it's personal dps is directly tied to it's raid dps. How do you play around RNG that is tied to raid dps? Except DNC with Saber Dance, no other job has raid dps tied to personal dps.

This is why I believe that MNK is not overtuned and more-so that other jobs need to be brought up. SAM should be another 200-300 dps higher for the high end. Putting it on par with MNK. If MNK gets bad RNG, SAM ends up higher. Which i think is fair. In regards to other jobs though, SMN and RDM should both be higher. The res tax they both suffer from at this point is unwarranted given the tightness of dps checks when going for first kills support jobs should be around DRG levels of rDPS and Pure DPS Jobs should be around MNK. I don't believe BLM should be such an outlier when initially it was high dps with low mobility, nowadays it has high on demand mobility when needed with procs, instand casts, triplecast and swiftcast.

TL: DR i believe MNK should be the top support DPS given it's RNG elements tied to its personal and raid contribution. But I do think other jobs need to be brought in line with DRG as the standard for support DPS and MNK as the standard for selfish DPS.

If you're going to nerf MNK then subsequently BLM, DRG and SAM to a lesser degree need to all be nerfed, not just one but at that point, why not just buff other jobs. Buffing has a more positive psychology attached to it as opposed to nerfing them all.

Mnk is busted dude just admitted.
No matter how you slice it. Mnk is way overturned, even people that raid at the highest level think so like Mr.happy.
Why you think every world race took a mnk.

Just because they have rng doesn't mean anything. Their rng isn't even that low, it's like what? 70%.

Stop trying to defend this broken ass job.
It needs to be nerfed.

Not only is their rdps high, their Pdps too. It rivals blm.
But wait! It totally depends because "rng"!

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Mnk is busted dude just admitted.
No matter how you slice it. Mnk is way overturned, even people that raid at the highest level think so like Mr.happy.
Why you think every world race took a mnk.

Just because they have rng doesn't mean anything. Their rng isn't even that low, it's like what? 70%.

Stop trying to defend this broken ass job.
It needs to be nerfed.

Not only is their rdps high, their Pdps too. It rivals blm.
But wait! It totally depends because "rng"!

If you bothered to look at FFLOGS you'd see that MNK is below BLM except 1 fight which has no positional requirement if not for the fact Levi and 50% of titan require no positionals it becomes pretty apparent that MNK would not be at the top, but BLM would be across all fights, this savage raid tier enables MNK to excel where it would usually not. It's lower on everything else at the highest level of play. Remember the old quote from Yoshi-p? "Job performance may vary on player skill" well BLM is the top dps. At lower levels of play MNK becomes the best. Funny, you say Mr Happy says MNK is busted yet ignore that Xeno says it doesn't need changes on streams :think:

The crit chance is 70% to gain a chakra, but the raid dps (which is what we're talking about here) is 30% on only weaponskills and synergizes poorly with PLD. I'm not saying Monk should be the top of personal dps BLM and SAM rightfully should be. I'm saying MNK doesn't need a nerf and SAM needs a buff. MNK's personal is lower than BLM, but given it's RNG and comp dependency it should be top when accounting for it's raid DPS. Not sure how people don't understand that? It should be 3rd personal DPS tied with MCH and 1st on raid dps.

If we imagine BH brings say 400dps. Mnk Should do 15,000~pdps and SAM should do 15,200~ a pure dps should never outweigh being a better choice over a support DPS. Again support DPS rely on good groups to actually get the most out of their buffs. SAM being 500 below DRG and 750 below MNK isn't MNK's fault... it's the devs fault for poorly balancing SAM and needs further buffs.

I'm not even defending the job, I'm just saying it doesn't need nerfs. In your ideal scenario then you'd nerf MNK even though DRG is only 300dps behind it. Then what? Cry for DRG nerfs?
If I was to list how dps should be spread throughout the group it would be:
MNK 1st in rDPS / 3rd in pDPS
BLM 2nd - 3rd rDPS / 1st in pDPS
DRG 2nd - 3rd in rDPS / 4th in pDPS
SAM 4th in rDPS / 2nd pDPS
MCH around MNK pDPS.
NIN similar to DRG dps.
DNC and RDM around SAM levels of rDPS. Accounting for RNG elements
SMN and BRD just below SAM rDPS.

I would have all jobs within 800~dps from best to worst. As opposed to the current 1.7k~ gap between MNK/BLM and DNC.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=95

Again, if people really clamor for MNK nerfs then look at the bigger picture and realise that MNK, BLM, DRG and SAM are all better relative to every other job by a long way.

If you take away MNK's brotherhood 450-480 in a good comp. It's still 300dps above SAM. Surely the problem is that SAM needs a 3% buff to put it above MNK's personal DPS.

Lastly, yes RNG and composition does matter? Why pretend it doesn't? The fact that DNC for example can have up to ~500-600dps variance just from combo procs, similar to RDM (and also similar to MNK I may add) gone just because comp and RNG is ridiculous. Wonder how the Bard's felt about being crit and rng reliant for procs (I can tell you they hated it because the DPS variance from getting bad rng was bad for personal dps and bad for raid dps) there is a reason MNK's wanted the rng bs gone with ShB. But here we are, at least we're compensated a little.

Don't cherry pick my arguement next time either, you say rng means nothing, but didn't even acknowledge party comp also plays a factor. All of it plays a factor.

[xxvaynxx]

If you bothered to look at FFLOGS you'd see that MNK is below BLM except 1 fight which has no positional requirement if not for the fact Levi and 50% of titan require no positionals it becomes pretty apparent that MNK would not be at the top, but BLM would be across all fights, this savage raid tier enables MNK to excel where it would usually not. It's lower on everything else at the highest level of play. Remember the old quote from Yoshi-p? "Job performance may vary on player skill" well BLM is the top dps. At lower levels of play MNK becomes the best. Funny, you say Mr Happy says MNK is busted yet ignore that Xeno says it doesn't need changes on streams :think:

The crit chance is 70% to gain a chakra, but the raid dps (which is what we're talking about here) is 30% on only weaponskills and synergizes poorly with PLD. I'm not saying Monk should be the top of personal dps BLM and SAM rightfully should be. I'm saying MNK doesn't need a nerf and SAM needs a buff. MNK's personal is lower than BLM, but given it's RNG and comp dependency it should be top when accounting for it's raid DPS. Not sure how people don't understand that? It should be 3rd personal DPS tied with MCH and 1st on raid dps.

If we imagine BH brings say 400dps. Mnk Should do 15,000~pdps and SAM should do 15,200~ a pure dps should never outweigh being a better choice over a support DPS. Again support DPS rely on good groups to actually get the most out of their buffs. SAM being 500 below DRG and 750 below MNK isn't MNK's fault... it's the devs fault for poorly balancing SAM and needs further buffs.

I'm not even defending the job, I'm just saying it doesn't need nerfs. In your ideal scenario then you'd nerf MNK even though DRG is only 300dps behind it. Then what? Cry for DRG nerfs?
If I was to list how dps should be spread throughout the group it would be:
MNK 1st in rDPS / 3rd in pDPS
BLM 2nd - 3rd rDPS / 1st in pDPS
DRG 2nd - 3rd in rDPS / 4th in pDPS
SAM 4th in rDPS / 2nd pDPS
MCH around MNK pDPS.
NIN similar to DRG dps.
DNC and RDM around SAM levels of rDPS. Accounting for RNG elements
SMN and BRD just below SAM rDPS.

I would have all jobs within 800~dps from best to worst. As opposed to the current 1.7k~ gap between MNK/BLM and DNC.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=95

Again, if people really clamor for MNK nerfs then look at the bigger picture and realise that MNK, BLM, DRG and SAM are all better relative to every other job by a long way.

If you take away MNK's brotherhood 450-480 in a good comp. It's still 300dps above SAM. Surely the problem is that SAM needs a 3% buff to put it above MNK's personal DPS.

Lastly, yes RNG and composition does matter? Why pretend it doesn't? The fact that DNC for example can have up to ~500-600dps variance just from combo procs, similar to RDM (and also similar to MNK I may add) gone just because comp and RNG is ridiculous. Wonder how the Bard's felt about being crit and rng reliant for procs (I can tell you they hated it because the DPS variance from getting bad rng was bad for personal dps and bad for raid dps) there is a reason MNK's wanted the rng bs gone with ShB. But here we are, at least we're compensated a little.

Don't cherry pick my arguement next time either, you say rng means nothing, but didn't even acknowledge party comp also plays a factor. All of it plays a factor.

I think its "you" that actually needs to take a trip to fflogs.
If you bothered to LOOK, you would see a mnk is actually beating a blm in eden prime too, in pDPS and Rdps.
and before you say (well they might have better gear) nope, both have full 470.

Mnk shouldn't be beating BLM in ANYTHING not rdps. You SERIOUSLY. Think that's right? if so there is no point and continuing this debate. I see you main mnk so it actually make sense you're defending it.

Also I said mnk "rivals" meaning (they're close or equal to blm dps) and also beats it in some cases. I didn't flat out say they're outdpsing.
I feel you're checking the statistics but not know what you're actually looking at. So how about just checking the actual players?

Are you really saying the blm's ranking the highest in the world are not as good as the mnks? Seriously, get that tired ass meme out of here. "Job performance may vary on player skill"

Again, RNG doesn't mean a thing.
Blm also has RNG but that doesn't mean anything, they're still powerful, just how mnk is still powerful.
Just like how a blm can get thundercloud happy, mnk can get chakra happy.

Problem is mnk shouldn't be doing the Damage it is, you keep talking about how more or less rng should keep them from getting a nerf when that's not the case. You're not going to convince anybody that knows how busted MNK is.

As for the other rng jobs, they're no where near as strong as mnk. They have strong burst and that's about it, they won't getting to blm numbers.
Mnk in itself is already powerful without rng, you make it sound like mnk is weak without FBC and BH.

Also if mnk is nerfed I wouldn't be "crying" drg nerfs because drg's are not beating sam's personal dps.


About party comp, you can't always guarantee you'll get those comps. But that just proves then mnk does need a nerf even more if a certain comp pushs them over the edge that much.

Before I end this, let me clear up what I mean when I say rng doesn't matter.
Lets take bard from SB, bard in itself wasn't too strong when it didn't have its rng so it balanced out. When they get get crt happy their dps spiked but it was never to the level it was beating things like melee's(unless it was alphascape but those fights were very not melee friendly) and blm.

The problem with mnk is they're already strong without needing rng, like really strong. Now lets add that rng that makes them stronger to a already strong job and we have what we have now, a busted overtuned job.
Instead of a nerf,how about making charka could build up overtime? like how whm works.

My issue isn't about what they main, and I certainly don't care what you main either. My issue is that it's a pretty awful mindset to even have, and it's coming from a place that has no interest in the actual health of DPS in the game. It flat out sucks as an opinion, unlike actual Samurai DPS, which is still pretty freakin' great right now.

I could just as easily say "There is NO REASON EVER for SAMURAI to out dps MONK, EVER" with the same "conviction" and cheap insults thrown at other players voicing their opinions they have in this thread, and it would be just as ridiculously stupid. Doesn't matter what you main, the moment you toss out "They could buff what I love, but I won't be happy if other things are still strong," you don't have an opinion on game mechanics worth listening to.

You're not understanding what I mean.
I said buffing samurai more wouldn't mean anything because mnk is still powerful, meaning now drg is now too weak and so is nin(again)
It would just mess up melee balance even more, people would just take samurai and mnk now.

Melee balance is crap right now but at least people are taking any melee atm.

[Rakeesh]

Oh boy. That "trivialize content" thing again.

There are enough strong jobs right now to fill an entire group and they aren't steamrolling through Eden Savage. Buffing the other jobs to their level won't trivialize anything because there's a limit on how many people you can take with you. So if everyone does around the same damage it won't matter if you take a

MNK BLM DRG DRG

or

SAM RDM BRD BRD

You can already do one of those and they aren't steamrolling through current content.
So what would be the problem if the second group was around as strong?

And future content can be balanced around everyone doing around equal damage.

The only thing that nerfing things would do is disrupt people going through Savage now with their current setups.

Also as I said earlier in this thread, what's the point of nerfing jobs when the enrage timers are so tight this time around?

Maybe... just maybe... they keep buffing jobs each hotfix patch because the fights are tuned around the level of damage the top DPS are doing and the lower DPS jobs are currently undertuned and they can't fix every job at once in a hotfix patch.

[Capn_Goggles]

The only thing that nerfing things would do is disrupt people going through Savage now with their current setups.

Also as I said earlier in this thread, what's the point of nerfing jobs when the enrage timers are so tight this time around?

I definitely agree with this. Nerfs should be reserved for *unintended* power levels and things that just completely throw stuff out of whack for no valid reason. BLM is fine where it's at, MNK was probably unintentional to a certain degree and may get a small nerf at some point, SAM needs buffs to be near BLM, and MCH/BRD/DNC/SMN/RDM need to be brought up to a viable level.

This is the most reasonable course of action because as was stated, when you already have enough "overtuned" jobs to form a full party composition and the game is balanced with them in mind, it means they are not overtuned but that other jobs are undertuned. Buffing the low performance jobs wouldn't create power creep as the level of power has been there since the start and merely extends the number of viable party compositions instead of just revenge-nerfing jobs because they stuffed your job of choice in the shed.