So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Granyala]

Simply saying they are bad players is a shallow and insufficient response.

A better question is why are they bad players that are so focused on their DPS

The common denominator to all of these players is their over focus on DPS, why?

I argue it's due to the influence of things like parses, because people want to rank, and they want to beat others, and where they place on FFlogs.

You can argue till your face turns white, won't change the fact that 90% of the players (and subsequently 90% of the bad ones too) don't even know parsers and FFLogs exist (or Forums/Class guides/Boss guides etc)

Keep in mind that only a tiny minority uses these programs. The overwhelming majority simply logs in and plays according to their gut feelings.
The result is pretty much always sub optimal play because the game itself does not give you enough information to perform at a top tier level.

My argument is that parses can make some players play badly and do incorrect things because they are overly focused on DPS.

So can the desire to squeeze in on more Fire IV or get one more combo through.
Tunnel visioning on DPS doesn't necessarily need a parser in order to happen.

[Forever_Learning]

You're moving the goal posts here. The original argument pertained to tanks intentionally not using CDs because they're too focused on their DPS. This makes no sense because using CDs has no impact on your DPS.

No, if you go back and see post #409, you will see I am discussing many things.
The point about tanks wasn't even specific to tanks in this game, which is why you never see me mention any specific spells.
You can even remove the word tank.
The general point is that parsers can make players overly focused on their DPS, which can make them actually do things that make their DPS worse.

If you want to disagree with me, tell me how there's no chance ever that a parser with an associated ranking will have impact a person's performance.

I’ve asked you about three times to provide evidence for your claim. If you’re so sure that what you’re saying is right, why haven’t you done that yet?

and I have given plenty of examples. See post #409, or the link I posted about healers being overly focused on DPS, and more general things about how parsers impact how people perceive roles like the tier list created by a content creator. I mentioned how it can lead to people playing in a way that makes things worse for them, mentioned by a person in a web series about a player in WoW, where the bad player is quoted as specifically mentioning the parser.
I'm giving you many examples of how parsers can impact how people play and how it changes people's perception of a job.

Choosing to not use mitigation skills does not make you do any more DPS. So it doesn't make any sense to claim these tanks are over-emphasising dps over mitigation, since that's not really possible to do. They are just bad players ignoring a very important part of their toolkit.

It's not specific to tank, It's true of any role. There are bad players out there who over emphasize DPS over all else. They are bad. I think it's because they are influenced by how high they rank, and they think playing like that will make them rank higher, when in reality it's the opposite. I admit many of the examples I can give you come from WoW, but that's also a game where parsers are highly prevalent.

So can the desire to squeeze in on more Fire IV or get one more combo through.
Tunnel visioning on DPS doesn't necessarily need a parser in order to happen.

I agree, I'm simply saying it's an additional variable that can have an impact.
As you said, it may only impact 10% of the playerbase, but it's still impacting 10% of the player base.

[HyoMinPark]

and I have given plenty of examples. See post #409, or the link I posted about healers being overly focused on DPS, and more general things about how parsers impact how people perceive roles like the tier list created by a content creator. I mentioned how it can lead to people playing in a way that makes things worse for them, mentioned by a person in a web series about a player in WoW, where the bad player is quoted as specifically mentioning the parser.
I'm giving you many examples of how parsers can impact how people play and how it changes people's perception of a job.

No, you aren't providing me with the examples/support I've asked for. You are shifting the goalposts. Give me an example that supports your initial argument in post #463, which was that tanks are so focused on DPS that they will not use cooldowns. Don't bring in irrelevant information about healers and some content creator because that is not what we were discussing. You're avoiding your initial premise that I have contested. Why is that? Is it actually because you cannot provide proof to support it?

If you cannot support your initial premise, it means that you don't actually have an argument. You're just, as I said before, trying to pin the blame on parsers because "reasons".

Also, leave WoW out of this, because this is FFXIV. Not WoW.

EDIT: I'd also like for you to provide examples of how people change the course of a fight encounter to impact their damage. I've asked for clarification and for you to provide examples of how this is done multiple times as well, but you keep avoiding it. Are you talking about uptime strats? Tank swaps? What is it that people do to "change the course of a fight" so that they can have better damage?

[Ronduwil]

Also, leave WoW out of this, because this is FFXIV. Not WoW.

Agreed that this is FFXIV, but many of us with objections to openly allowing parsers have those objections because of our WoW experience. I have yet to encounter any toxic behavior in the duty finder, and I'm inclined to credit the lack of parsers as well as diligent moderation for this. I don't know what else could account for it. You're arguing that parsers make everything better, but those of us who come from WoW know for a fact that the opposite is the case. It's silly to disregard experience from a different MMO for the same feature just because it was a different MMO.

The current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is optimal. Those who want to use parsers properly to improve their own performance can do so. Those who want to misuse parsers to belittle other players are prevented from doing so. Don't fix what's not broken.

[Miles064]

Agreed that this is FFXIV, but many of us with objections to openly allowing parsers have those objections because of our WoW experience. I have yet to encounter any toxic behavior in the duty finder, and I'm inclined to credit the lack of parsers as well as diligent moderation for this. I don't know what else could account for it. You're arguing that parsers make everything better, but those of us who come from WoW know for a fact that the opposite is the case. It's silly to disregard experience from a different MMO for the same feature just because it was a different MMO.

The current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is optimal. Those who want to use parsers properly to improve their own performance can do so. Those who want to misuse parsers to belittle other players are prevented from doing so. Don't fix what's not broken.

I started WoW right before Cata and I played on and off til BFA. The only times people got called out by parsers that I can remember were when it was really bad. Not low(people understood while lvling/gearing up some classes scaled differently) but legit "what are you even doing?" bad. That "what are you even doing?" bad was somewhat rare in WoW but is all over the place in FF14. I cringe whenever i see a NIN in my party now, not because NIN is weak(I'm told they can use some help? haven't leveled it yet) but because they are pretty much always trash. No aoe, rarely use muradas, spam throwing knife, just auto attacking for 4-5 seconds at a time levels of trash. And these are all level 71+.

With public parsers these players would have real numbers showing just how bad they are playing. From there they can improve or the party can get rid of them. Because of this I'd argue parsers should be used from the moment you can go into your first dungeon to allow you to see with numbers how you are doing and how that changes for you and other players/classes as you gain levels and gear. It would give the player base a roadmap of how they should be scaling and the value of each new skill they gain.

[HyoMinPark]

Agreed that this is FFXIV, but many of us with objections to openly allowing parsers have those objections because of our WoW experience. I have yet to encounter any toxic behavior in the duty finder, and I'm inclined to credit the lack of parsers as well as diligent moderation for this. I don't know what else could account for it. You're arguing that parsers make everything better, but those of us who come from WoW know for a fact that the opposite is the case. It's silly to disregard experience from a different MMO for the same feature just because it was a different MMO.

The current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is optimal. Those who want to use parsers properly to improve their own performance can do so. Those who want to misuse parsers to belittle other players are prevented from doing so. Don't fix what's not broken.

My argument here is actually that you can't blame everything on parsers. Learning is insistent that parsers and obsessions over damage are why tanks won't use defensive cooldowns. I'm asking for proof of this statement, because I think the two are unrelated. They keep bringing up unrelated statements about healer DPS, content creators, and WoW instead of answering my question.

I think parsers are wonderful tools. But that's not what I'm arguing with them at all. If you think that, you haven't read what I'm actually saying.