So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

"Even if it was not the intention, a penalty may be imposed if the end result was that another person was hurt or obstructed."

This is also assuming the GM's enforcement of these rules are consistent. And even with that GM ensuring there won't be penalties for constructive criticism, I doubt many players would want to risk a warning on their account when they could easily just vote kick without saying a word.

In that case, bad play could be counted as obstruction, no?

[Imbrium]

"Even if it was not the intention, a penalty may be imposed if the end result was that another person was hurt or obstructed."

This is also assuming the GM's enforcement of these rules are consistent. And even with that GM ensuring there won't be penalties for constructive criticism, I doubt many players would want to risk a warning on their account when they could easily just vote kick without saying a word.

If the players are that concerned with GMs being inconsistent and biased they should be calling for GM reform and training, but I'm still just seeing complaints about the rules here.

Which is odd, because people were arguing that kicking could be reported for breaking the ToS as well if a GM wanted to pursue it in that thread. I still see players getting the boot for everything from not pulling enough, to not dpsing enough, to not talking enough. We don't seem to have a problem with that form of self-expression.

What's the difference here? If a player feels wronged by a kick they can report it just as easily as text. In theory we'd be seeing less kicking if players were that concerned with waffling moderators.

[Ronduwil]

Person A: Was anyone parsing? How did I do?
Person B: You did [number].

That is how these exchanges usually occur when they do happen. So, again: is Person C/D/E/F/G/H going to be offended by Person A’s numbers? No. The people who report exchanges like this do so because of the “omg parser bad” mentality.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm used to using Recount for WoW, which dumps the entire party's DPS at one time. I wan't aware that the addon used for FFXIV only dumps a person at a time.

[Daibunnie]

If the players are that concerned with GMs being inconsistent and biased they should be calling for GM reform and training, but I'm still just seeing complaints about the rules here.

Which is odd, because people were arguing that kicking could be reported for breaking the ToS as well if a GM wanted to pursue it in that thread. I still see players getting the boot for everything from not pulling enough, to not dpsing enough, to not talking enough. We don't seem to have a problem with that form of self-expression.

What's the difference here? If a player feels wronged by a kick they can report it just as easily as text. In theory we'd be seeing less kicking if players were that concerned with waffling moderators.

Because expecting the GM's to reform and be given new training is somewhat unrealistic, especially when its in the case of judging a conversation involving criticism of another player. The rules/tos are what encompasses player behavior and interaction and can change depending on the playerbase.

If vote kicking is against the tos, why is it an ingame feature? Some can and will abuse it yes, just like any other feature in the game. All the reasons you listed could easily be taken as "difference in playstyle" as a reason for kicking, and I have yet to see anyone actually get a penalty for it.

The major difference in just plain kicking is the reason for the kick. This is where most people will just put "difference in playstyle" and in most cases, the GM will likely dismiss the kicked player's report.

[Imbrium]

Because expecting the GM's to reform and be given new training is somewhat unrealistic, especially when its in the case of judging a conversation involving criticism of another player. The rules/tos are what encompasses player behavior and interaction and can change depending on the playerbase.

If vote kicking is against the tos, why is it an ingame feature? Some can and will abuse it yes, just like any other feature in the game. All the reasons you listed could easily be taken as "difference in playstyle" as a reason for kicking, and I have yet to see anyone actually get a penalty for it.

The major difference in just plain kicking is the reason for the kick. This is where most people will just put "difference in playstyle" and in most cases, the GM will likely dismiss the kicked player's report.

But your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

[Forever_Learning]

Did you press the button that says "this didnt kill me, try again shortly"? (If you didn't, your damage will be awful because you just died).

Tank success at everything else will be easily discernable by their damage output.

I don’t disagree with you about the state of tanks. However, I am concerned that there are many tanks putting an over-emphasis on damage. I’ve been in dungeons as a healer and there are many bad tanks who simply aren’t using their defensive CDS, they focus on their DPS and expect me, the healer, to just help keep them alive, so I spend my whole time spamming heals to keep them alive (cause they also don’t want to adjust for mechanics), and somehow as the healer, I am also supposed to have high DPS?

In other games that logic of "what do they contribute besides dps" might work, but not this one. this is a game where healers spend 70% of the time, minimum, casting dps spells. The only thing that matters for them in terms of healing is that they kept the team alive, so long as they did that, they cannot heal any better. So what else can you judge them on? Their dps.

I also don’t disagree with your statement about the state of healers. However, I am concerned that there are healers out there who are focusing on DPS and barely thinking about their healing spells. There many threads on this site or elsewhere asking why some healers seem to just not be healing?
I did a very quick google search and found this example (I know it's old, it's just an example, more exist):
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rs-not-healing
In short, I don’t disagree with the statements about tanks and healers, and I think a good tank mitigates and does DPS, while a good healer heals and does DPS, but often there are tanks who ONLY DPS, and healers who ONLY heal. Yes, these are bad tanks and bad healers, but I also think the parsers has made some people focus ONLY the DPS because they will often view using a heal or a defensive CD as a DPS loss.

If vote kicking is against the tos, why is it an ingame feature? Some can and will abuse it yes, just like any other feature in the game. All the reasons you listed could easily be taken as "difference in playstyle" as a reason for kicking, and I have yet to see anyone actually get a penalty for it.

The major difference in just plain kicking is the reason for the kick. This is where most people will just put "difference in playstyle" and in most cases, the GM will likely dismiss the kicked player's report.

Combining your recent posts, and especially this one, you have effectively said the following:
-When I tell someone they are playing bad, they can report me, and I don’t trust the GMs to deal with it appropriately, so I kick them instead.
-I’m comfortable kicking people because even if they complain, I know I can give a good reason to the GM which will make them see it as ok.
You effectively are saying you trust the GMs when you have a complaint about someone, but you don’t trust the GMS when the complaint is against you. Hmmmmmm

your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

This response was worth repeating.

[HyoMinPark]

I don’t disagree with you about the state of tanks. However, I am concerned that there are many tanks putting an over-emphasis on damage. I’ve been in dungeons as a healer and there are many bad tanks who simply aren’t using their defensive CDS, they focus on their DPS and expect me, the healer, to just help keep them alive, so I spend my whole time spamming heals to keep them alive (cause they also don’t want to adjust for mechanics), and somehow as the healer, I am also supposed to have high DPS?

I think that’s less of a focus on damage and more you get tanks that don’t understand how to use cooldowns. Cooldowns don’t affect damage—and never have—so there’s no loss to using them. But tanks seem to be allergic to them, and that’s been the case for years. Well before the focus shifted to tank DPS.

[Forever_Learning]

I think that’s less of a focus on damage and more you get tanks that don’t understand how to use cooldowns. Cooldowns don’t affect damage—and never have—so there’s no loss to using them. But tanks seem to be allergic to them, and that’s been the case for years. Well before the focus shifted to tank DPS.

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

I understand when you say cooldowns don't affect damage; I"m saying I think some tanks seem feel bad pressing anything that doesn't affect their damage.

I'm saying some tanks won't move out of a mechanic, nor use anything to reduce the incoming damage, and expect to just be healed, while doing anything that has a damage potency connected to it. Some will then even complain that the healer isn't doing much DPS - ignoring how much they stressed their healer.

I've also heard people say that tanks are really nothing more than people who want to play DPS with a short que time.

So, there are players focused ONLY on DPS, and then you give them parsers, which they will probably use incorrectly, and just focus on whatever number is there rather than the fight itself. These players exist, and in WoW where parsers are rampant, it's worse, so I dislike any increase in the use of parsers.

Nevertheless, I also agree it's more effective and better to regulate the players rather than the parsers.

[Granyala]

But your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

They aren't consistent. They never are, never will be.
I know it from WoW. It makes a HUGE difference what GM you get if the case isn't clear cut.

Also, if a player is kicked, all they do is assess whether there was flaming involved. You never get banned over the kick itself.
ToS talks about "manipulation of the votekick" not kicking itself.

An example would be a guild group of 7 kicking 1 random so they can attempt to replace him with an 8th guild member. I've never seen that happen because you cannot reliably recruit specific replacements in this game.

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

Simple: they are incompetent as players. Similar to healers that tunnel vision on DPS or DPS that tunnel vision and ignore mechanics.

There I said it, now go report and ban me. *chuckles*

[ForteNightshade]

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

I understand when you say cooldowns don't affect damage; I"m saying I think some tanks seem feel bad pressing anything that doesn't affect their damage.

I'm saying some tanks won't move out of a mechanic, nor use anything to reduce the incoming damage, and expect to just be healed, while doing anything that has a damage potency connected to it. Some will then even complain that the healer isn't doing much DPS - ignoring how much they stressed their healer.

I've also heard people say that tanks are really nothing more than people who want to play DPS with a short que time.

So, there are players focused ONLY on DPS, and then you give them parsers, which they will probably use incorrectly, and just focus on whatever number is there rather than the fight itself. These players exist, and in WoW where parsers are rampant, it's worse, so I dislike any increase in the use of parsers.

Nevertheless, I also agree it's more effective and better to regulate the players rather than the parsers.

Unfortunately, people are bad. It's the same idiocy that plagued Stormblood with Diversion. Here you have a button completely free, which could even be used pre-pull when you're literally doing nothing, yet there always seemed to be one DPS who refused to press it. Why? "It's the tanks job!" More often than not, when you have a tank not using their CDs. They're a DPS main who wanted faster queues and doesn't actually have any idea how tanking works.

The only solution is to... let them die. And should they complain, you point out their lack of CDs. If they continue to whine, you Vote Dismiss them. Yes, it may be confrontational but babysitting players like this will only encourage the mentality. I can say, from experience, the more DPS I let eat a Tank Buster because they refused to hit Diversion, the more they learned what that button did.

Parsers have no bearing on this mentality. You really not to stop equating incompetence with parsers. Even if parsers were magically erased from everyone's minds tomorrow, these tanks would still not use their CDs because they're simply bad.