So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Forever_Learning]

That just reminded me of this ^^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjoSQ-lCA58

There is such a thing as over-regulation, and under-regulated.

But some regulations and rules are necessary and good for the functioning of society, which allows everyone to benefit.

If everything in MMO experience harass you, maybe consider playing single-player games?
MMO is a genre designed to be played with other people, who contribute equally. And, yes, in some content you need to contribute more, because some ppl interested in mashing 1 button, and some ppl want really hard content.
If I dislike genre — I don't play it instead of telling everyone that it should be reshaped for my needs and ego.

I’m not referring to myself, how much I like or dislike MMOs, nor discussing how much different people should be contributing. I’m discussing how people should interact with people in an MMOs, especially strangers, and I feel it should be in a civil and mature matter. Do you disagree?

Again, at least from the tank perspective, there are almost 0 buttons you can press that arent going to be used in response to tankbusters that will impact mitigation in any way.

Theres no "I sacrificed damage for survivability" tradeoff, because tanks dont have those buttons in 14.

We dont spend gcd's to shield block, its an ogcd that isnt competing with damage. we dont use a gcd to shield wall, its a button we ogcd that doesnt compete with anything. We dont lose damage to go into a defensive discipline, because its an ogcd that doesnt compete with anything. We dont lose damage to go into an evasive discipline because you probably get the point by now (also at least half of those dont exist in this game).

You judge tanks by their damage because they pretty much all took turns drawing from a grab bag of assorted ogcd abilities, either selfless or selfish, and all basically do the same thing. The ONLY thing that separates them, outside timing on Veil, Shake it Off or similar, is damage.

Are you saying that when you pick a tank, the only thing that should be considered is the damage they do and nothing else? Because my argument is that when you consider the worth of a job, or how well someone did, you consider all aspects rather than focusing on specifically on the DPS number produced by the parser. If you think you should consider only DPS when choosing a tank, then we have a disagreement. I believe all aspects of a job should be considered when choosing it’s worth.

[Myaku]

I’m not referring to myself, how much I like or dislike MMOs, nor discussing how much different people should be contributing. I’m discussing how people should interact with people in an MMOs, especially strangers, and I feel it should be in a civil and mature matter. Do you disagree?

I agree, but still don't understand how one's perfomance can harass this person, honestly. There are many even single-player games with missions, where you got a grade at the end, which shows how you performed. Is this harassment too?

I find more harassing when you politely ask someone to make aoe rotation/to get better gear/etc and get the reply like 'you don't pay my sub', 'I play like I want' while auto-attacking mobs in the dungeon. We're paying real money for this game, and someone just wants to waste it and get 1-hour dungeon run. And still the person who asks politely to perform better is the one who harass. Why?

[Billythepancake]

There is such a thing as over-regulation, and under-regulated.

But some regulations and rules are necessary and good for the functioning of society, which allows everyone to benefit.


I’m not referring to myself, how much I like or dislike MMOs, nor discussing how much different people should be contributing. I’m discussing how people should interact with people in an MMOs, especially strangers, and I feel it should be in a civil and mature matter. Do you disagree?

Are you saying that when you pick a tank, the only thing that should be considered is the damage they do and nothing else? Because my argument is that when you consider the worth of a job, or how well someone did, you consider all aspects rather than focusing on specifically on the DPS number produced by the parser. If you think you should consider only DPS when choosing a tank, then we have a disagreement. I believe all aspects of a job should be considered when choosing it’s worth.

In other games that logic of "what do they contribute besides dps" might work, but not this one. this is a game where healers spend 70% of the time, minimum, casting dps spells. The only thing that matters for them in terms of healing is that they kept the team alive, so long as they did that, they cannot heal any better. So what else can you judge them on? Their dps.

[Forever_Learning]

Did you press the button that says "this didnt kill me, try again shortly"? (If you didn't, your damage will be awful because you just died).

Tank success at everything else will be easily discernable by their damage output.

I don’t disagree with you about the state of tanks. However, I am concerned that there are many tanks putting an over-emphasis on damage. I’ve been in dungeons as a healer and there are many bad tanks who simply aren’t using their defensive CDS, they focus on their DPS and expect me, the healer, to just help keep them alive, so I spend my whole time spamming heals to keep them alive (cause they also don’t want to adjust for mechanics), and somehow as the healer, I am also supposed to have high DPS?

In other games that logic of "what do they contribute besides dps" might work, but not this one. this is a game where healers spend 70% of the time, minimum, casting dps spells. The only thing that matters for them in terms of healing is that they kept the team alive, so long as they did that, they cannot heal any better. So what else can you judge them on? Their dps.

I also don’t disagree with your statement about the state of healers. However, I am concerned that there are healers out there who are focusing on DPS and barely thinking about their healing spells. There many threads on this site or elsewhere asking why some healers seem to just not be healing?
I did a very quick google search and found this example (I know it's old, it's just an example, more exist):
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rs-not-healing
In short, I don’t disagree with the statements about tanks and healers, and I think a good tank mitigates and does DPS, while a good healer heals and does DPS, but often there are tanks who ONLY DPS, and healers who ONLY heal. Yes, these are bad tanks and bad healers, but I also think the parsers has made some people focus ONLY the DPS because they will often view using a heal or a defensive CD as a DPS loss.

If vote kicking is against the tos, why is it an ingame feature? Some can and will abuse it yes, just like any other feature in the game. All the reasons you listed could easily be taken as "difference in playstyle" as a reason for kicking, and I have yet to see anyone actually get a penalty for it.

The major difference in just plain kicking is the reason for the kick. This is where most people will just put "difference in playstyle" and in most cases, the GM will likely dismiss the kicked player's report.

Combining your recent posts, and especially this one, you have effectively said the following:
-When I tell someone they are playing bad, they can report me, and I don’t trust the GMs to deal with it appropriately, so I kick them instead.
-I’m comfortable kicking people because even if they complain, I know I can give a good reason to the GM which will make them see it as ok.
You effectively are saying you trust the GMs when you have a complaint about someone, but you don’t trust the GMS when the complaint is against you. Hmmmmmm

your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

This response was worth repeating.

[HyoMinPark]

I don’t disagree with you about the state of tanks. However, I am concerned that there are many tanks putting an over-emphasis on damage. I’ve been in dungeons as a healer and there are many bad tanks who simply aren’t using their defensive CDS, they focus on their DPS and expect me, the healer, to just help keep them alive, so I spend my whole time spamming heals to keep them alive (cause they also don’t want to adjust for mechanics), and somehow as the healer, I am also supposed to have high DPS?

I think that’s less of a focus on damage and more you get tanks that don’t understand how to use cooldowns. Cooldowns don’t affect damage—and never have—so there’s no loss to using them. But tanks seem to be allergic to them, and that’s been the case for years. Well before the focus shifted to tank DPS.

[Forever_Learning]

I think that’s less of a focus on damage and more you get tanks that don’t understand how to use cooldowns. Cooldowns don’t affect damage—and never have—so there’s no loss to using them. But tanks seem to be allergic to them, and that’s been the case for years. Well before the focus shifted to tank DPS.

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

I understand when you say cooldowns don't affect damage; I"m saying I think some tanks seem feel bad pressing anything that doesn't affect their damage.

I'm saying some tanks won't move out of a mechanic, nor use anything to reduce the incoming damage, and expect to just be healed, while doing anything that has a damage potency connected to it. Some will then even complain that the healer isn't doing much DPS - ignoring how much they stressed their healer.

I've also heard people say that tanks are really nothing more than people who want to play DPS with a short que time.

So, there are players focused ONLY on DPS, and then you give them parsers, which they will probably use incorrectly, and just focus on whatever number is there rather than the fight itself. These players exist, and in WoW where parsers are rampant, it's worse, so I dislike any increase in the use of parsers.

Nevertheless, I also agree it's more effective and better to regulate the players rather than the parsers.

[ForteNightshade]

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

I understand when you say cooldowns don't affect damage; I"m saying I think some tanks seem feel bad pressing anything that doesn't affect their damage.

I'm saying some tanks won't move out of a mechanic, nor use anything to reduce the incoming damage, and expect to just be healed, while doing anything that has a damage potency connected to it. Some will then even complain that the healer isn't doing much DPS - ignoring how much they stressed their healer.

I've also heard people say that tanks are really nothing more than people who want to play DPS with a short que time.

So, there are players focused ONLY on DPS, and then you give them parsers, which they will probably use incorrectly, and just focus on whatever number is there rather than the fight itself. These players exist, and in WoW where parsers are rampant, it's worse, so I dislike any increase in the use of parsers.

Nevertheless, I also agree it's more effective and better to regulate the players rather than the parsers.

Unfortunately, people are bad. It's the same idiocy that plagued Stormblood with Diversion. Here you have a button completely free, which could even be used pre-pull when you're literally doing nothing, yet there always seemed to be one DPS who refused to press it. Why? "It's the tanks job!" More often than not, when you have a tank not using their CDs. They're a DPS main who wanted faster queues and doesn't actually have any idea how tanking works.

The only solution is to... let them die. And should they complain, you point out their lack of CDs. If they continue to whine, you Vote Dismiss them. Yes, it may be confrontational but babysitting players like this will only encourage the mentality. I can say, from experience, the more DPS I let eat a Tank Buster because they refused to hit Diversion, the more they learned what that button did.

Parsers have no bearing on this mentality. You really not to stop equating incompetence with parsers. Even if parsers were magically erased from everyone's minds tomorrow, these tanks would still not use their CDs because they're simply bad.

[HyoMinPark]

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

I understand when you say cooldowns don't affect damage; I"m saying I think some tanks seem feel bad pressing anything that doesn't affect their damage.

No. The tanks that don’t utilize their cooldowns are bad players. It’s as simple as that. It has nothing to do with parsers, nor has it ever. The same is said for healers that won’t use their entire toolkit (healing or damage spells), or the DPS that won’t AOE/use their raid buffs or basic job mechanics (e.g., BRDs that won’t use their songs). They’re simply bad players, and the parser is irrelevant here. Don’t conflate the two.

[Taika]

I don’t disagree with you about the state of tanks. However, I am concerned that there are many tanks putting an over-emphasis on damage. I’ve been in dungeons as a healer and there are many bad tanks who simply aren’t using their defensive CDS, they focus on their DPS and expect me, the healer, to just help keep them alive, so I spend my whole time spamming heals to keep them alive (cause they also don’t want to adjust for mechanics), and somehow as the healer, I am also supposed to have high DPS?

This argument doesn't make any sense. Tank defensive cooldowns are off cooldown abilities. You're not using them instead of your DPS abilities but between them and in double weaves with DPS abilities. So for tanks, this is not a question of choosing between a DPS skill or a defensive skill, because you're always able to use them at the same time. Choosing to not use mitigation skills does not make you do any more DPS. So it doesn't make any sense to claim these tanks are over-emphasising dps over mitigation, since that's not really possible to do. They are just bad players ignoring a very important part of their toolkit.

[galbsadi]

I don’t disagree with you about the state of tanks. However, I am concerned that there are many tanks putting an over-emphasis on damage. I’ve been in dungeons as a healer and there are many bad tanks who simply aren’t using their defensive CDS, they focus on their DPS and expect me, the healer, to just help keep them alive, so I spend my whole time spamming heals to keep them alive (cause they also don’t want to adjust for mechanics), and somehow as the healer, I am also supposed to have high DPS?

This sounds much more like a bad tank rather than a parsing issue.

I mean, I maybe slightly off, b/c I've only leveled one tank to 80 (the others are all 75-76)...but for the most part most of the damage abilities on a tank are GCD, and all of the cooldowns are oGCD...so there's literally nothing stopping a tank looking to maximize DPS from using cooldowns.

In fact, in the case of Warrior at least one CD (Vengeance) would increase your DPS if used accordingly, so a WAR focusing on DPS would want to further ensure they were using their CDs.

The more likely scenario you're looking at here is a case of new (or newer) tanks that simply haven't learned about proper CD usage, be it due to thinking of CDs as something to use in emergencies rather than proactively (which is wrong, BTW, buttons are made to be pressed...even the invulns [yes, even Bolide])...or be it to simply not realizing how impactful those abilities can be.

I tend to come across 3 types of CD usage from tanks:

Tank A doesn't use CDs pretty much ever...and I, as the healer, am cursing them under my breath the entire run...but I don't believe this is a 'because of parsers' issue...they just don't use their CDs.

Tank B is almost as bad as Tank A. They use their CDs, but it's all or nothing. No CD, no CD, ALL THE CDs, no CD. It's great for the 20s where CDs are up, but sucks for the other 70 you're left waiting.

Tank C...is my favorite type of tank. They know how to rotate their CDs, and they're also the tank I try to be when tanking myself (and comments and commends received while tanking would imply I do at least an 'okay' job at striving for such).

Note that none of these have anything to do with parsing or not parsing, either.

Here's where parsing does start to matter, if one cares:

If I cared about parsing first and foremost, I might want certain players in my group to boost my personal DPS outlook. No more WHM, give me SCH/AST instead (and have them buff me and only me). Also, that DNC better use CP on me, etc. That's caring about parses for the sake of parsing...not whether I do or don't use CDs.

If I cared about parsing first and foremost, I would never run with DF groups (or probably even PF groups). I can't guarantee I wouldn't get bad players that way, and bad players can screw up my parse.

If I cared about parsing first and foremost, I probably wouldn't enjoy the game as much as I do, because I'd be too focused on numbers (like a certain former member of my static who quit leading and tanking so he could focus on MNK dps :P) to the extent of missing the enjoyment of playing with like-minded people.

Part of this might be that I don't tend to parse too terribly once I've gotten a fight down...but I've almost never seen someone complain about my DPS numbers even if I knew for a fact that they were parsing....and that's here or in WoW. (Exceptions exist, ofc, but those are typically people I don't want to play with anyhow.)