Reasonable buff to war

[Nedkel]

So to follow up on the previous post what buffs does WAR need?
1) Nascent flash buff. Give it 75% of total healing you do to yourself shared with your target instead of 50% and increase the time on it so you can fit one more GCD in it.
2) Remove the potency on vengeance and slightly buff other skills so you are basically 'moving' that potency so it doesn't feel bad when WAR isn't MTing.
3) WAR needs improvements to the flow of the job. The job feels like crap to play when IR is on cooldown while all other tank jobs outside of their "burst phases" still having things to manage and do. WAR does not besides trying to hold on fell cleaves for raid buffs or IC for raid buffs. WAR doesn't scale well with DRG and BRD buffs because of the DH/CRIT guarenteed so if you are running them WAR falls behind all other tanks.

(Personal request)
Rework the DH/CRIT identity of the job. I don't like it and it makes melding WAR akward when all other tanks meld in one way (Skill speed requirements is the exception) but WAR has to be melded differently. DH? You don't do that on WAR and right now DH is the best to meld in all other tanks until the end of this tier with BiS because there is so much crit on them. It makes swapping between tank jobs expensive for an unnessesary reason.

So in TL : DR
Make tanks even more copy-paste to each other than they are right now, because of "balance" in literally one raid that will be meaningful in a 3-6 months time.

You just asking them to make war the same as other tanks, remove that, change this so it will play the same as X, oh wait have we just made all 4 tanks playing the same?
no thanks.

[BarretOblivion]

So in TL : DR
Make tanks even more copy-paste to each other than they are right now, because of "balance" in literally one raid that will be meaningful in a 3-6 months time.

You just asking them to make war the same as other tanks, remove that, change this so it will play the same as X, oh wait have we just made all 4 tanks playing the same?
no thanks.

Even in SB both DRK and PLD melded normally while WAR became an exception. Melding doesn't make all tanks the same. DRK became another WAR and I would perfer the removal of DH/CRIT to properly balance WAR giving them more skills to use.

[BarretOblivion]

I don't mind this at all. Giving WAR some more self heal is not really a big deal to me at all. Nascent only being a 10% damage reduction as well warrants some more healing for the target too.



I agree with this wholeheartedly. The entire point of so many of the ShB tank changes was to make all tanks equally (or near equally) viable at both the MT and OT roles. Vengeance is the only tank ability in the game that rewards the player with damage for being attacked. (TBN is close, but you can use it on other targets and it is only DPS neutral when it breaks, so I don't consider it here) It honestly feels like this ability just fell through the cracks and should have been changed along with everything else.



I do agree that it is pretty boring to play. The removal of stance dancing really took a lot of the complexity of the job away. I would be fine with adding some more oGCD skills, a DoT, or really anything else to add a bit more to the job. See below for my thoughts on secondary stats between classes.




I have to disagree with you on this point. I do like to see all the big numbers during my IR window and the only way to remove the different effect that secondary stats have on the job would be to rework this mechanic completely. It is a bummer that you can't reuse the same gear as the other tanks, but this is a small price to pay for maintaining class identity.

Again, that's why I stated opinion and personal request. I just wonder that because of how WAR is right now, its also limiting the chances of them giving them new skills at all.

[Tex_Mex]

Again, that's why I stated opinion and personal request. I just wonder that because of how WAR is right now, its also limiting the chances of them giving them new skills at all.

That's certainly a part of, but I wouldn't worry to much. WAR has been one of the developer's favorite children for a long time. I will not be surprised if it gets a lot of love in the next few months.

[LuceliaUltima]

A simple way to fix melding issues would be to actually meld by jobs but not by gears like glamour works kinda

[aleios_dvs]

It doesn't mean that War need a potency buff, maybe it needs some changes, but potency wise is perfectly fine.

So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

[Arrius]

So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

Paladins have a sword, shield AND magic that works with them.
This argument about having the biggest weapon around doesn't justify you being the biggest damage dealer.

It's just like D&D right now - Paladin dishes out the most, while the Barbarian literally is unkillable while enraged.

And the Warrior is the embodiment of that. They are simply too angry to die.

[Shurrikhan]

Onslaught:

• GNB loses 80 potency for using Rough Divide charges outside of No Mercy, and a further 105 or so for not using them during raid buffs atop that. (80-185)
• PLD loses 100 potency for using Intervene charges outside of Fight or Flight, and a further 110 or so for not using them during raid buffs atop that. (100-210)
• DRK loses ~55 potency for using Plunge charges outside of Trick Attack/Battle Litany/Chain Strategem/Battle Voice and nothing without raid (de)buffs. (0-55) I personally have little issue with this advantage as DRK is the OG gap-closer tank and its ShB iteration is built around this kind of flexibility.
• Onslaught does 5 potency per gauge while Fell Cleave does 590 but has the further cost of a GCD, for which Warrior averages 293.33 potency with a further 30 Beast Gauge gain (worth, then, around a further 180 potency or 60 ppgcd for a true total of 370.33 ppgcd), and advantage of 5 seconds trim from Infuriate, worth 8.3% of the bonus of Inner Chaos over ppgcd for ~46 potency. Fell Cleave thus deals about a nominal 300 bonus potency per gcd or an effective 265 bonus potency per 50 Beast Gauge, about a .3 potency per gauge advantage or about a 6% increase in efficiency... That's the second best efficiency for free use behind DRK, who uses it entirely for free. Increasing it to even 110 potency would already bring it faintly ahead of Fell Cleave. It just lacks for the double-dash functionality, since it would otherwise still go to waste as mobility, being plugged instead into Inner Release for a further free 67 potency per minute. If we could somehow make the second charge of Onslaught not be affected by IR, I could go for having a second charge, but that's about it.

Storm Eye duration:

• Frankly, the duration buff on Jinpu/Shifu was dull enough on SAM in the time it took to have any real reason or need for the buff (SkS devaluation, TG, longer Meikyo duration, and--more subtly--one's inability to trim Sen now that Hagakure is a trap) that it's quite turned me off to the idea. I'd honestly rather keep Storm's Eye duration about where it is. I'll gladly listen to other alternatives where they might find ways to decrease the initial ramp-up time necessary, however. Heck, you could trade out Onslaught potency outright for an Attack Speed increase on your next couple GCDs. At an average potency of, say, ~400 ppgcd, it'd only take a 12.5% Attack Speed buff to return Onslaught's potency value. That said, I doubt I'd like the impact that would have on the IR window, where, especially paired with raid buffs, such an advantage would be badly overpowered.

Vengeance:

• We're not really lacking for AoE damage, I thought? That's about the only place this would be significant. I'd argue WAR needs little if any potency buffs in single-target, either, and even if it did I'd sooner take the adjustment through other abilities.

Inner Chaos:

• Does the super nuke pairable with Nascent Flash for a nuke-heal really need a buff? I'd have to argue not...

[aleios_dvs]

Paladins have a sword, shield AND magic that works with them.
This argument about having the biggest weapon around doesn't justify you being the biggest damage dealer.

It's just like D&D right now - Paladin dishes out the most, while the Barbarian literally is unkillable while enraged.

And the Warrior is the embodiment of that. They are simply too angry to die.

I don't fully accept this counter argument. I think the identity of being a zerker certainly justifies it. Holy hell our goddamn eyes glow.
My justification in my eyes still stands. D&D does it? Magic that works with them? What does that even mean?

Too angry to die? Exactly. We're nutcases. Axe swinging skull crushing psychopaths. God even the sound design screams FUCKING KILL. Kinda shits all over the class identity when the piddly little peasant with this cricket bat of a sword does more damage.
It's a subjective thing to be sure. But goddamn son. I need me some numbers dammit. You don't see PLD and DRK players having skull goblets to drink the blood of their enemies from. Meanwhile the GNB is too busy trying to figure out if he should be stabbing or shooting someone.

Since we're going with analogies. A PLD is like a human from star trek. Uses brain. A WAR is like a Klingon. Uses KILL.
I think it would make sense for PLD to contain a wider damage mitigation toolset and the WAR having one based on KILL. Like how it was since forever. It's just the the poor PLD got screwed the hell over for so many expacs where it was pure suckage. Let's just like not do that again and we good.

I don't see what the actual problem with this is. But hey I'll be reasonable. Give me my goddamn skills back PLEASE. Give me deliverance back. Give me BB combo. Anything to make the rotation less like PLD was from 2.0-4.0. 1-2-3 boring me. The homogenization craze that SE seem to be on has made this expac sooooo incredibly boring.

[RadicalPesto]

So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

Heavensward had by far the worst tank balance of any expansion in this game's history but of course, some people really are nostalgic for Warrior having both the best DPS, raid mitigation and personal mitigation in the game by a wide margin. Heavensward Warrior cannot come back ever because a job with the highest tank DPS by a huge margin, a 3 minute immunity, a 2 minute sentinel while all the other tanks have a 3 minute one, and a permanent -10% damage debuff attached to a combo is, fundamentally, impossible to balance.