Reasonable buff to war

[Arrius]

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly.

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

[ForteNightshade]

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

Why is it fine one tank has several clunky or downright unintuitive gameplay aspects while also doing the least damage? No one is saying Warrior has to be buffed back to meta status. They're simply pointing out flaws in its design. Saying that because it isn't laughably behind ala Ninja it shouldn't matter is just silly.

Normally I'd say being able to clear content isn't a hallmark of good tank design, but all of the tanks are so close to each-other in terms of offense and utility that it honestly is irrelevant. WAR has crazy good personal cooldowns and still has the best cheese skill in Holmgang considering its hilariously short cooldown, and DRK is basically unbreakable except he can put that shield on other people if he so chooses.

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

[Capn_Goggles]

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

[BarretOblivion]

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

There is a difference between being viable and feeling like crap to play, and WAR is probably the worst feeling tank to play. DRKs have their own problems with the fact they became "WAR" in a sense but WAR had a pretty big issue where it felt like crap to play even in SB when IR was on cooldown. There were optimization and tools at their disposal however requiring a WAR to have thought or situational awareness of fights. They had the best tank stance in the game with the ability to go into it with 0 penalties, their DPS stance required knowledge of when to fell cleave and when to hold it for the passive crit buff increase. With the changes in ShB they lost both of these tool pieces that gave them depth leading to a tank that takes away any thought and gives out the damage that makes sense to it. The problem is, many WAR mains feel like this was forced upon their job when they didn't want that.
There is a reason why WAR is the least played tank right now, by a fairly signifcant margin. There is a reason players don't bring WARs into most of the savage fights except for Leviathan mainly because its the one fight where DRK/WAR comp makes it very easy to deal with as tanks.
That doesn't mean we can't be irritated at this.

[Katie_Kitty]

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly. It has zero buff synergy due to guaranteed Direct Hi Crits, it has a weaker overall defensive kit than Paladin and flirts with being dead last in DPS. Add to that Onslaught abruptly became the worst gap closer (baring its range) and Storm's Eye, and it's hard to call Warrior being equal.

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile.

Sure, if you're only looking at rDPS (which you shouldn't be).

[BarretOblivion]

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

No, this is a major issue. DPS isn't the only reason. This raid tier is not made for WAR and in fact its the weakest tank in all but 1 fight, Leviathan. It has 0 strenghts that make it stand out besides "self healing" which is a useless stat when you self heal just a few auto attacks in the long run. Then there are fights that absolutely hate on WAR, mainly E4S. Titan HAAATES WAR with it throwing off and RNGing screwing WARs on some of their IR windows if they get picked for a mechanic their DPS will tank. And then there is the tank buster. WAR is the only Tank that can't invuln the entire tankbuster of stonecrusher. You have to make sure a WAR has full hp, they must cooldown the first hit, then holmgang, then healers have to be ready to again instant heal the WAR afterwards. Lets look at the other options in this fight:

DRK: Living Dead lasts through the entire stonecrusher, just make sure you heal him once it ends. Clunky but can be easily planned around.
GNB: Must wait for the last moment to superbiolde the tankbuster to make it last. Any mistake and they are dead. Healers can heal them during the TB making it easy to top them off because of complete invulnerability.
PLD: Basically an almost REQUIRED tank in Titan as Hallowed makes the third phase where a crap ton of healing is required a joke and helps the healers immensely. Being able to invuln that final stonecrusher is great for healers to catch back up, or to save their resources for AoE healing.

WAR? Brings nothing but a possible handicap on Titan if you get screw balled by RNG and more work for the ground on tank busters. In 1/2 there are akward timings in the fight and the problem is WAR is best when its the main tank the ENITRE TIME. E2 is theoretically WARs best fight... but the heads can make missing a fell cleave during IR a big problem mulitple times. DRK has that problem too in E2, but it brings solid mitigation and isn't fully gimped if it loses 1 bloodspiller every so often. WAR missing an IR Fell Cleave? That is painful.

Remember, WAR is the least played tank class now. By quite a bit. The other 3 tanks are fairly close in activity, WAR is has a big play gap between the other tanks... and there is a reason for it. (The really awful flow of the job when IR is on cooldown might be a contributor)

[millktea]

This is such a non-issue. The difference between the strongest tank (Gunbreaker) and the weakest (Warrior) is barely 2% at the 95th percentile. Compare that to DPS (12%) and healers (6%) and you can see that tanks are far and away the most balanced role in the game.

DPS isn't everything when it comes to balance. Until you make every single skill the exact same, these tanks will not be balanced.

warrior is at a disadvantage due to having to apply eye as well as IR being a complete burden. this ability is so skill speed and ping dependant and you pray that your cd animations or the Inner Release animation itself doesn't screw you over. the three tanks are consistent dps, while warrior's burst is too high. this means that the better rDPS is, the worst their personal dps is. gun can use all party buffs, pld doesnt care, war can only use rdm/mnk/nin and those three are mostly dead and drk needs a nin. imbalanced.

Paladin's clemency and Equilibrium are the same potency. However, equilibrium is 60s and clemency you can not only spam it 5 times, but it gets buffed by 50% at 68. Clemency is level 58. Warrior's equilibrium is 58, but it cannot be buffed by ToB until level 78, which is only 10s and can the heal can only be used ONCE. Flash is not available until level 78, and its conditionally tied to another player as well as being dependent on damage (which makes it poor with it being only 6s)

warrior has no "self-healing" at 50. it's self-healing is abysmal at 70. warrior is a SLOWBOYE, and making something so tight a window as 6s or 10s (NF/IR) is inconsiderate.

raw intuition is at all times inferior. its legit just a cd for a "oh snap, i messed up i dont have a cd" moment. camo is too good.

the tanks were more balanced in stormblood. the problem was that dark knight was absolutely inferior to the other two and bringing one was a guaranteed rDPS loss no matter what.

it didn't get anything in Shadowbringers. It lost a significant amount in 4.2 Stormblood and they got nothing in return. Flash is the ONLY thing warrior got, but this isnt new either as its just a trash tier bloodbath to give back what SC and IB had prior. Paladin got *everything*: a gapcloser, an aoe magic attack, a combo finisher, more dps, Req. buff. all unique animations. Gunbreaker is a whole new tank, so it got all those resources that warrior (and dark knight) should've got, but didnt. Warrior was completely ignored.

Dark Knight doesn't even have its own pure unique burst as it just burrowed warrior's "inner release", which NO ONE WANTED. and it has fray. ok. cool. Dark doesnt even get its second hit in its aoe combo until like 74. sad.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I mean Storm's eye works the same as it has since SB as does IR after people cried about old IR being too difficult. It's on you to press IR at the correct time, not ping, it's like hitting fof too early, I miss Goring Blade under the buff, that's player error. You only need to hit a certain amount of SkS, and beside since WAR's the odd tank out, instead of melding DH you can meld SkS to reach the correct tier. Also worth noting, with the increase in time between GCD for combos to sat alive, you have time to weave IR window and refresh eye, giving more freedom than before tbh.
So Clemency at 58 you can get 2 off, then at 68 5 off, and 78 buffed and insta-cast, buuuuuuut it cost both mp and it is at the cost of damage, WAR's equilibrium cost nothing, it's free, it uses no resource, unless you count time, but PLD needs time to build it's mana back up too.

As for PLD getting new stuff, a gap closer is one of the most sought after abilities requested by paladins, all tanks now have access to Arm's Length. PLD's AoE was spin to win, and flash once in a blue moon, now they brought all AoEs in line via combos, but also added an AoE variation to reflect PLDs single target rotation. As for req buff, the major buff is the insta cast, as you couldn't block while casting, and made movements a pain in the ass during req in certain fights, so basically QoL, and then the buff of 50% increase in magic damage potency and healing potency from 20%. Although, only really noticed HS doing more damage than SB variation at about i450-ish, with the tank damage formula change, granted HS did lose 20 potency moving into ShB.

WAR got new interactions with infuriate, a short defensve CD in RI, Nascent Flash as an answer to PLD having a monopoly on OT skills, and an AoE combo finisher, you did get some new stuff for WAR, saying it was ignored is just hyperbole at best.

I disagree with your sentiment of GNB " so it got all those resources that warrior (and dark knight) should've got, but didnt." that's very much a childish view, as WAR had a more naturally evolution of it's pre-existing skills, which GNB couldn't really hinder in it's creation.

[Izsha]

a bunch of objectively wrong or hyperbolic stuff

There is so much wrong with this post. IR is very ping friendly and does not jeed hardly any skill speed to pull off. This is literally the 1st pist i have seen complaining about IR and ping in the same sentence. You are obviously having some trouble with this skill, and 9x out of 10 this happens because people dont know you should wait to hit the button until the latter part of your gcd CD. Thats on you. The only time i miss a FC in IR is because i screw up. You can do it with darn near zero skill speed if you do it properly.

Plds 50% stronger spammable heal comes by spamming heals instead of 50% boosted spell windows. The only time this is practical is while soloing which this game is not designed for. Sacrificing MASSIVE amounts of damage to heal does not put war behind. It puts pld behind because that is a terrible choice and only viable as a last ditch effort to an already boned run. Wars heal in the other hand costs zero dps, is ogcd, and can be buffed without hurting dps even further. I use equil in every fight all the time. Plds use ckemency at best during down time or in a pinch to proc their aoe party shield and still loose dps to do even that. And no self healing? I heal for roughly 50k per use of nascent and 25k to my target in raids. In dungeons i full heal and then some with it.

Raw int is 'inferior'? Its identical to plds 20% but costs no resource. Guns is 15% and has a itty bitty shield. Drks is better, but has some risk. The only reason raw isnt used as much is not because its inferior, its because nascent is so much more powerful in most situations.

The tanks were more balanced in stormblood? What in the...holy crap. When dek had zero aoe mit. When running without a pld was a stupid idea because of the immense support it had. When drk was inferior to both pld and war. In support, damage, and personal mitigation until the very end through many, many rounds of buffs while pld got many rounds of nerfs? When they did an entire war rework because it wasnt working quite right and let drk simmer for years? Tanks are chrrently more balanced in dps than ever before and thats with an additional tank to balance. They are are MUCH closer in the support side than ever before as all have aoe mit and single target support skills. They are all closer in mitigation as they have been homogenized heavily in personal mit skills. They are objectively more balanced now than in any point in history. Practically everything in your post is objectively wrong or hyperbole.