Can any team comp clear?

[Wayfinder3]

Glad we're all not showing any of that bias. Only us evil Black mages, not wanting to be ostracized for progression.

it's easy to cherry pick quotes without context, if you read his comment prior, you can see that he feels it's justified for BLM to do the most damage as it has the least amount of utility to contribute to a raid in progression. RDM on the other hand was designed to contribute to a raid's progression. So it's only FAIR that RDM should see more representation in progresion because THATS THE POINT OF IT. in alphascape, this was true and RDM had more clears than both SMN and BLM but both of them filled a strong healthy coexistence in speed kills and optimized play where rdm had no place. This isn't Bias, this is fair distribution of value in a role.

[Vendalwind]

Job strength aside, the raw statistical chance of that group forming is rather slim. That's a 2/105 chance if the party just randomly formed, out of all the 210 possible combinations of 4 unique dps in a party. 1.9%.

Im really surprised you made it three more pages without someone battling this logic a little more.

You make it sound like because of this statistic we shouldn't expect to see this comp clear too frequently anyways via random composition. By that same exact measure then why in the Hells do we see BLM, DRG, MNK, MCH/BRD so bloody frequently then? flipping it on its head the fact that these two compositions are so overly common should be a pretty clear demonstration of the the fact that these classes are sitting on top of the balance, regardless of the balance of dps necessary for a raid.

I'm sorry but I have a really hard time reading all this and not getting a little incensed, but Zerathor you really do come across as a BLM supremacist.

"And because we already saw Utility Jobs: The Expansion™ and its sequel Utility Jobs 2: This Time Without Double Range Physical™." Stop looking for bloody reparation. Not only is this a gross satirical exaggeration of past events but it's you being a straight butt hurt snob about them. The state of the game in the past DOESNT EVEN FREAKING MATTER. if we want balance now we need to talk about balance with only current metrics and team comps in mind.

On the original subject. No way a 4 DNC party could ever clear, probably even not now Id guess unless some of them had E4 weapons. I doubt they'd even have made it past E2S

And if qualified with Unique Jobs and Standard comp AND week 1 clear.
I very much think a SAM, NIN, DNC, SMN/RDM comp would have struggled exceptionally hard to clear E4S if it was in fact even possible. I personally would have put that down as a challenge to pointlessly annoying to even attempt.

[Drayos]

it's easy to cherry pick quotes without context, if you read his comment prior, you can see that he feels it's justified for BLM to do the most damage as it has the least amount of utility to contribute to a raid in progression. RDM on the other hand was designed to contribute to a raid's progression. So it's only FAIR that RDM should see more representation in progresion because THATS THE POINT OF IT. in alphascape, this was true and RDM had more clears than both SMN and BLM but both of them filled a strong healthy coexistence in speed kills and optimized play where rdm had no place. This isn't Bias, this is fair distribution of value in a role.

Prog mage needs to die as a meme in all honesty.

All three casters should have a place in both prog and farm. The gap needs to be made smaller.

They have gone to great lengths to give BLM more tools to help its existence in prog, looking at logs and more BLM were played more then RDM even in its first release of savage.

We need to return to the 1000 damage difference that Sb held us at, which embolden can then make up mostly for. This would balance us out without standing on their toes.

[SaberMaxwell]

alright bud, you want to cherry pick? lets cherry pick.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/23

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/19

Keep pretending it wasn't because raise.

50 bucks says you considered this fair, lmao

You don't think mobility couldn't have had some reason as well? Summoners back when that was relevant could do bait-type mechanics as well as a ranged DPS could, which itself was invaluable for keeping healers rooted and, well, healing. This was an advantage that Black Mage and Red Mage lacked. Liquid Hell bait DPS needs a backup? SMN to the rescue, able to Ruin 2 and run. Eruption baiting? Summoner loses basically nothing doing this, so the healers lose nothing in needing to do it for the caster.

Raise is a factor, yes, but if BLM had raise in that fight and maintained its immense disadvantage in mobility, it wouldn't have done much better. While Red Mage, who has verraise, did better than Black Mage, it has barely over half the clear rate as Summoners despite how much better it is at raising quickly. Summoners are so vastly overrepresented in both Ultimates because it lacked any of the weaknesses of its peers and had the strengths of both of them.

You know who else got to be top dog DPS for an expansion and hated by its peers because it demanded that place for "reparations" from past expansion's tough points? Summoner. Just a thought.

[Skiter]

At week 1, with NIN, RDM and DNC was impossible with minimum ilvl, these 3 jobs do not reach 11k minimum dps in a fight with downtimes.
E4S has a 75k dps check, and a 20s downtime, and NIN is the one that suffers the most downtime due to its higher APM in the game.

[Zerathor]

Im really surprised you made it three more pages without someone battling this logic a little more.

You make it sound like because of this statistic we shouldn't expect to see this comp clear too frequently anyways via random composition. By that same exact measure then why in the Hells do we see BLM, DRG, MNK, MCH/BRD so bloody frequently then? flipping it on its head the fact that these two compositions are so overly common should be a pretty clear demonstration of the the fact that these classes are sitting on top of the balance, regardless of the balance of dps necessary for a raid.

I'm sorry but I have a really hard time reading all this and not getting a little incensed, but Zerathor you really do come across as a BLM supremacist.

"And because we already saw Utility Jobs: The Expansion™ and its sequel Utility Jobs 2: This Time Without Double Range Physical™." Stop looking for bloody reparation. Not only is this a gross satirical exaggeration of past events but it's you being a straight butt hurt snob about them. The state of the game in the past DOESNT EVEN FREAKING MATTER. if we want balance now we need to talk about balance with only current metrics and team comps in mind.

On the original subject. No way a 4 DNC party could ever clear, probably even not now Id guess unless some of them had E4 weapons. I doubt they'd even have made it past E2S

And if qualified with Unique Jobs and Standard comp AND week 1 clear.
I very much think a SAM, NIN, DNC, SMN/RDM comp would have struggled exceptionally hard to clear E4S if it was in fact even possible. I personally would have put that down as a challenge to pointlessly annoying to even attempt.

I wouldn't say that specific comp you mentioned is frequent either. Its there, but certainly is not the norm. Unless you meant the jobs themselves being in groups individually. In which case I would argue that seeing drg, brd/mch isn't very surprising as they were already more than prevalent due to last expansion's meta requiring them in any type of party comp. Blm and smn are relatively close on their clear rates at the moment with smn having 10% less clears than blm. Monk is an extreme outlier, and I will agree a ton of people probably went monk due to their buffs alone, and not because they were just around waiting.

The only support job that I feel is really out of it by this metric is just ninja, and the others are just maybe a hair under what they should be, but not too far off the mark. Ninja however should get some kind of better buff to be more competitive.

Also it's not about complaining about the past. Its historical evidence of what happens when support jobs get to be as strong as you people want to make them. If i wanted to make it about complaining about the past, I'd bring up how none of you gave a damn then about any job that wasn't drg/nin/brd/smn struggling to get into a party, and told us to just switch jobs.

[Kabooa]

At week 1, with NIN, RDM and DNC was impossible with minimum ilvl, these 3 jobs do not reach 11k minimum dps in a fight with downtimes.
E4S has a 75k dps check, and a 20s downtime, and NIN is the one that suffers the most downtime due to its higher APM in the game.

Admittedly a huge outlier, but it's there.

[SaberMaxwell]

Dualgunner did, Zera. They cared a lot that players like you and Llugen were being forced to switch jobs to play what you didn't want to play. They commiserated with you quite a bit about Summoner's position in regards to Red and Black Mage, and indeed even compared to Machinist. Were they not perma banned from the OF they'd be here posting, not me.

[SaberMaxwell]

Admittedly a huge outlier, but it's there.

Buncha luckies getting slow enrage. But it fits with my original statement in the thread, it's 100% possible even if only by the skin of one's teeth on slow enrage.

[Kabooa]

Buncha luckies getting slow enrage. But it fits with my original statement in the thread, it's 100% possible even if only by the skin of one's teeth on slow enrage.

4 of the first 10 clears with Overpowered jobs also got it on the slow enrage.