Dear Paladins

[Absimiliard]

So using a Defensive Cooldown to take a tankbuster or mitigating damage is cheesing LUL

Imagine thinking that Hallowed Ground would even work as an emergency button with it's year long animation.

BTW, if you have a tankbuster coming up, that is going to kill you, is that not an emergency?

Care to point out where I made any of the above statements? See, I'm of the opinion that you two took that out of context on purpose so you could have some form of justification for otherwise unprovoked condescension. Either way, that's some gold medal winning mental gymnastics.

[Rakshazi]

You do not need to spam Clemency every time you go below 95% health. You are probably annoying the crap out of your healer, please stop.

Dear healers.
You do not need to tell us what to do, because we usualy silent about you pretending to be DPS. Please stop. Or start be competent enough so we will stop warry about our HP while you spam some Holy (or other "DPS" button).

[Lynesse]

Care to point out where I made any of the above statements? See, I'm of the opinion that you two took that out of context on purpose so you could have some form of justification for otherwise unprovoked condescension. Either way, that's some gold medal winning mental gymnastics.

I understand your point of view.

Some things in this game feel a little backwards sometimes, even if they work well other times.

We definitely have to learn to do things that go against our instincts. That's the crux of this whole issue, in fact.

We get away with a lot of risk-taking in this game, and our instincts tell us this is bad practice for obvious reasons.

This last bit isn't really directed at you. Just thinking aloud. Speedrunning is fine, but we survive by managing resources. Time is a resource we (mostly) have in abundance, and the GCDs people burn on Clemency are naturally seen as a very small price to pay when weighing the risks.

[Mesarthim]

Dear healers.
You do not need to tell us what to do, because we usualy silent about you pretending to be DPS. Please stop. Or start be competent enough so we will stop warry about our HP while you spam some Holy (or other "DPS" button).

I mean they aren't wrong. Though there are legitimate uses for Clemency depending on the healer and/or pull. But you better not be using it when excog is on you because then you risk it being an overheal. I still remember the paladin from Skalla in stormblood, spammed clemency so much that my earthly star was a 100% overheal. Any restorative spell used too much is bad. Key phrase "too much."

But don't be the kind of person that has to be so petty as to generalize all healers as people wanting to dps and only dps.

Edit: Though some of the posts on the first page kind of made me sad really. We have healers blaming tanks, tanks blaming healers. I mean come on now. That's sad in itself. If you have to automatically assume someone is bad then I think you need to take a step back. I dabble in all roles and have been on the receiving end of both sides. Some people can handle responsibility, others cannot. Tanks and healers need to both be sufficiently geared. Tanks need to rotate cooldowns properly, healers need to make sure you do not die (provided people actually learn to dodge aoes). People really like to over complicate things.

[ilione]

paladin attracts the biggest babies, i swear. you're not gonna die because you scraped your knee.

i play drk which has very little self sustain now and i've seldom died because the healer let me drop to 20%, even 10% to dps more and bring me back up with an ogcd heal. it doesn't matter how much hp you have as long as it doesn't hit zero

no, it's the healers who do nonsense like spam heal with cure 1 in akademia that make me wary

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Care to point out where I made any of the above statements? See, I'm of the opinion that you two took that out of context on purpose so you could have some form of justification for otherwise unprovoked condescension. Either way, that's some gold medal winning mental gymnastics.

What context is there to misunderstand, you literally said tank invulns should be used for emergencies as opposed to cheesing, there is literally nothing to take out of context mate. So cheesing is, before it was patched, was people stripping naked and re-apply gear then have healers heal people from critical health to generate LB3 before the fight even started. As said, thankfully it has been patched. Making use of invulns and planning out their uses in fights is usually smart plays so it can help take the stress off of healers while actually making use of buttons instead of leaving them gathering dust, just in case something may or may not happen.

[Absimiliard]

What context is there to misunderstand, you literally said tank invulns should be used for emergencies as opposed to cheesing, there is literally nothing to take out of context mate. So cheesing is, before it was patched, was people stripping naked and re-apply gear then have healers heal people from critical health to generate LB3 before the fight even started. As said, thankfully it has been patched. Making use of invulns and planning out their uses in fights is usually smart plays so it can help take the stress off of healers while actually making use of buttons instead of leaving them gathering dust, just in case something may or may not happen.

Okay, there is an obvious disconnect going on here. At no point have I insinuated that tanks should only use their invulns for emergencies in the game's current build. I've been one of the people arguing /against/ that mentality. What I was getting at with the single out-of-context comment was that they need to come down hard on tanks by nerfing our invulns into the ground. We can use them too freely. I feel that they should have massively increased cooldowns, drastically reduced durations, and reduction or removal of their start up delays. It is my opinion that forcing players to do each and every mechanic as it comes up would lead to more engaging gameplay. This would have the benefit of increasing the likelihood of errors being made which would in turn increase the probability of someone dying, leading to more interesting encounters.

As for your second point; the community at large typically refers to anything that negates or bypasses an intended mechanic as cheesing. Does this mean it's bad? No. That also doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. It's just a word we use to describe doing something like that, and it so happens that tank immunities are usually the most effective means of pulling that sort of thing off. We should all be doing it at every possible opportunity to minimize risk and maximize efficiency, and indeed, most of us do. So, when one of us refers to something as cheesing a mechanic, we don't mean cheating. We mean finding a creative solution that allows us to reduce or in some cases entirely negate the threat posed by that mechanic. I strongly advocate the use of any shortcuts (as long as they don't violate TOS in some way) we find in the game's current build. My position on this will not change until or unless the way tank invulns work is altered in a way that is not conducive to continuing this behavior.

[Temjiu]

Funny Story. Came back to the game after a long break (stopped after reaching 70 in SB, never did the end game). Been leveling my pally in DF, and don't even really pay attention to my health bar until I die. first time, I was thinking, "should I use a heal? do I even have one?" couldn't find it until I realized that I never even got it on the hotbar

I'm pretty chill about the whole thing. I don't worry about the healer until I die, then I keep an eye on things. If they get frustrated by me using my heal, oh well. My goal is the run gets finished and everyone makes it through. Not sure why we'd nitpick outside of that (shrug). Wasted energy.

[TheForce]

paladin attracts the biggest babies, i swear. you're not gonna die because you scraped your knee.

i play drk which has very little self sustain now and i've seldom died because the healer let me drop to 20%, even 10% to dps more and bring me back up with an ogcd heal. it doesn't matter how much hp you have as long as it doesn't hit zero

no, it's the healers who do nonsense like spam heal with cure 1 in akademia that make me wary

So, aside from your gross over-simplification of why most PLDs tend to frequently clemency, I need to address this quote:

"It doesn't matter how much hp you have as long as it doesn't hit zero"

Yeah no. It's not dare as black and white as you're trying to make it seem. I'm a bit concerned that I need to even say this in a discussion that (I'm assuming) end-game players are participating in, but it DOES matter how much HP one has. Why you ask? Because the Tank dying is something that needs to be avoided at all costs; it is a grave failure that carries dire consequences. Tanking (or doing any role in this game for that matter) on a low HP bar allows much less room for error/mistakes from yourself AND party-members and GREATLY increases your risk of dying (again, can't believe I have to say this). You want to minimize this risk as much as you can, because like I said earlier, a Tank's death is something that NEEDS to be avoided. It's not something that a skilled player would toy around with and try to chance.

You bragging about Tanking while being at ~20% HP is nothing to proud of; this isn't a good thing at all, it's the opposite. What you're describing is very reckless behavior, you're unnecessarily increasing your risk of death for what? So adds can die a second or two faster? Give me a break. And you say you've "seldom died" as a result of this so it must be fine, that's just silly. Dying at all from this type of play is a huge problem, because it's a situation that can, and should be avoided.

Then you even go as far as to insult healers that actually try to keep you healed and well off to ensure that death isn't even an option for you. You say they make you "wary", lol. You want to know the difference between being stuck at 20% HP and stuck at 100%? With the latter, there's no possibility of you dying if the Healer looks away for a few seconds, with the former, there is.

As a Tank main (PLD/DRK main too, by the way), I'm disappointed in your reply, DRK.

[Anne-]

I will never get those kind of healers.

You are a healer, first and for most, so you are to keep the group alive and going, THAT is your main job. And yes, when everyone is looking good on health and you have the time to DPS, then do it, but only then. If you can't grasp that, you failed at your job. It's that plain and simple.