Disrespectful and Dismissive.

[Billythepancake]

What are you talking about? You are really reaching for this multitasking argument. What happens is that you decide to use Whispering Dawn. Before, you'd press the button whenever. Now you have to find or create a weave slot. It is no longer borderline OP and requires significantly more thought on your part.



MP is harder now because misuse of Lucid Dreaming is significantly more punishing. However, MP is and has always been a non-issue if you used your MP regen tools properly.



Nice straw-man you have there.

How is it more punishing if it's on half of the CD is used to be, if anything it is less punishing because you're not waiting on it nearly as long, even if it regens less, the potency on it was changed by what, 20? Doesn't regen all that much less, again, it's nothing more than, as you put it, a management button, but it seems it's okay for lucid, but not for anything else.

My argument is far from strawman, if the comparison was what made it that way, fine, I'll explain it another way. More to do and more to manage was more interesting, because you were much more likely to forget something, and therefore, would always have room for improvement. Even if those things you forgot were just "management buttons", it was still something to manage and something to watch for, having that on top of mechanics and HP bars is why it felt like there was always room to do better, and why I found things fun. Removing too much of that management has made things much more boring, and in fights that I'm currently progging, outside of mechanics, I do not feel as if I can improve all that much, because there is nothing for me to improve on outside of the fight itself in my kit. When my first clear on a fight was an orange, that got taxed down to a purple, but barely that, that is telling me, even if this is just the beginning of an expansion, that I'm already too close to the ceiling, because I did not have enough to manage. I don't know about you, but I never want to hit a static cap where I don't feel like I can't get any better at the game.


And if the using the ability wasn't multi-tasking to you, despite everyone else agreeing it was, because it is quite literally doing 2 things at once, then so be it. I will still argue that casting 2 abilities at once is, by definition, multi-tasking, and was more interesting and more satisfying to do than having to use ruin II to weave in fairy abilities. Not even to mention the amount of times I want her to use both abilities now, with her straight up bugging out and putting one of them on CD without actually using the ability. That never seemed to happen with the old system, but then I suppose fairy actually using her abilities was OP.

[LariaKirin]

How is it more punishing if it's on half of the CD is used to be, if anything it is less punishing because you're not waiting on it nearly as long, even if it regens less, the potency on it was changed by what, 20? Doesn't regen all that much less, again, it's nothing more than, as you put it, a management button, but it seems it's okay for lucid, but not for anything else.

The reason it is more punishing is because it is purely a personal responsibility now. If you do not use it correctly, there are no bailouts in the form of Mana Shift and Refresh coming your way.

It is a management button. Literally a MP management button. I see what you're trying to do, but I'm just gonna ask directly. What's your point?

My argument is far from strawman

It's because you're lumping everything together and you're telling me what I'm arguing about things neither of us have even brought up before. I said literally nothing about two distinct fairies. I said it would be nice to have back Enhanced Aetherflow. It feels like you're not even paying attention to my posts.

So let me just ask you this... From what I said so far, what do you think my problem is with these DPS skills (Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, Bane)? Why do you think I do not want them back?

And if the using the ability wasn't multi-tasking to you, despite everyone else agreeing it was, because it is quite literally doing 2 things at once, then so be it. I will still argue that casting 2 abilities at once is, by definition, multi-tasking, and was more interesting and more satisfying to do than having to use ruin II to weave in fairy abilities. Not even to mention the amount of times I want her to use both abilities now, with her straight up bugging out and putting one of them on CD without actually using the ability. That never seemed to happen with the old system, but then I suppose fairy actually using her abilities was OP.

Fine, I'll call it multitasking if you're so attached to that term, it makes no difference to me. My point about this is that the way fairy skills worked before was OP, that it's healthy for balance and that now they require more thought to use on your part.

[Billythepancake]

The reason it is more punishing is because it is purely a personal responsibility now. If you do not use it correctly, there are no bailouts in the form of Mana Shift and Refresh coming your way.

It is a management button. Literally a MP management button. I see what you're trying to do, but I'm just gonna ask directly. What's your point?



It's because you're lumping everything together and you're telling me what I'm arguing about things neither of us have even brought up before. I said literally nothing about two distinct fairies. I said it would be nice to have back Enhanced Aetherflow. It feels like you're not even paying attention to my posts.

So let me just ask you this... From what I said so far, what do you think my problem is with these DPS skills (Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, Bane)? Why do you think I do not want them back?



Fine, I'll call it multitasking if you're so attached to that term, it makes no difference to me. My point about this is that the way fairy skills worked before was OP, that it's healthy for balance and that now they require more thought to use on your part.

It's more of a personal management thing, yes, but lucid has been made so strong, just use it every 60 seconds and that's it, you dont need to be babied on others for mana anymore because of that change, if anything it has become easier, because now you dont need a BRD just for the refresh, you dont need a mage just for the mana shift, you arent screwed without them, and you arent dependent on them, making it much easier and more forgiving, because even if you screw up, its not on nearly as long of a CD. If you died right after using lucid in SB, manashift only got you so far and you had 2 minutes until lucid was up, now you have 60 seconds.

Why you dont want those abilities, I couldn't tell you, because the only one you have put any justification I could possibly understand is miasma II, because it did genuinely not make sense for a dot to be your only AoE option, which is why I say AoW wouldve been a great compliment to it, but not a good replacement. The other ones though? You dumb them down to their simplest possible explanation "it's a button you press every x seconds" you can make anything sound insignificant if you dumb it down that far.

And I hardly agree they were OP because the abilities themselves were not OP, especially now after fairy got nerfed to high heaven. Even if it was OP not having them ties to the GCD or oGCD, it doesnt change it *felt* so much better to use, even if, as you put it, it didnt require much thinking (which I will disagree with, but you have every right to your opinion) because SCH has so many oGCD abilities, it was so relieving to have SOMETHING I didnt have to weave in, to have something I could just do. Having them be oGCD does not require more thinking, it just makes it more annoying because now I have to sacrifice a broil for it and use a ruin II.

[LariaKirin]

It's more of a personal management thing, yes, but lucid has been made so strong, just use it every 60 seconds and that's it, you dont need to be babied on others for mana anymore because of that change, if anything it has become easier, because now you dont need a BRD just for the refresh, you dont need a mage just for the mana shift, you arent screwed without them, and you arent dependent on them, making it much easier and more forgiving, because even if you screw up, its not on nearly as long of a CD. If you died right after using lucid in SB, manashift only got you so far and you had 2 minutes until lucid was up, now you have 60 seconds.

I do agree that it's easier because passive MP regen is increased and Lucid Dreaming is twice as strong now. But my point is that it's more punishing because when you mess up there are no outside bailouts. What basically happened is that Manashift and Refresh have been incorporated into our passive regen and Lucid Dreaming. It is now up to us to keep this level of regen up by paying attention to Lucid. Delaying or failing Lucid quite simply costs more than it did in SB. We can go round and round like this forever, but all you need to do is go back 1 month in time and look at all the threads complaining about MP regen to see how much people were relying on outside sources. You'll even find my posts saying that MP regen is fine and that all you need to do is keep Lucid rolling.

Why you dont want those abilities, I couldn't tell you, because the only one you have put any justification I could possibly understand is miasma II, because it did genuinely not make sense for a dot to be your only AoE option, which is why I say AoW wouldve been a great compliment to it, but not a good replacement. The other ones though? You dumb them down to their simplest possible explanation "it's a button you press every x seconds" you can make anything sound insignificant if you dumb it down that far.

I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.

And I hardly agree they were OP because the abilities themselves were not OP, especially now after fairy got nerfed to high heaven. Even if it was OP not having them ties to the GCD or oGCD, it doesnt change it *felt* so much better to use, even if, as you put it, it didnt require much thinking (which I will disagree with, but you have every right to your opinion) because SCH has so many oGCD abilities, it was so relieving to have SOMETHING I didnt have to weave in, to have something I could just do. Having them be oGCD does not require more thinking, it just makes it more annoying because now I have to sacrifice a broil for it and use a ruin II.

Embrace nerf was completely warranted. It was a free permanent Regen. Then Whispering Dawn. Of course it felt better to use, you could do it any time and it had zero cost. You could do up to ten of them in a 10 minute fight. Ten better versions of Medica II at no cost. Now? You have to clip a Broil, not sacrifice it. Unless of course you can get away with weaving it into the next Biolysis. Considering how strong Whispering Dawn still is, I'd say a clip is still pretty damn cheap.

This is a good change for the sake of balance. Most of the changes they've done are good for the sake of balance and the future development of healers.

[Billythepancake]

I do agree that it's easier because passive MP regen is increased and Lucid Dreaming is twice as strong now. But my point is that it's more punishing because when you mess up there are no outside bailouts. What basically happened is that Manashift and Refresh have been incorporated into our passive regen and Lucid Dreaming. It is now up to us to keep this level of regen up by paying attention to Lucid. Delaying or failing Lucid quite simply costs more than it did in SB. We can go round and round like this forever, but all you need to do is go back 1 month in time and look at all the threads complaining about MP regen to see how much people were relying on outside sources. You'll even find my posts saying that MP regen is fine and that all you need to do is keep Lucid rolling.



I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.



Embrace nerf was completely warranted. It was a free permanent Regen. Then Whispering Dawn. Of course it felt better to use, you could do it any time and it had zero cost. You could do up to ten of them in a 10 minute fight. Ten better versions of Medica II at no cost. Now? You have to clip a Broil, not sacrifice it. Unless of course you can get away with weaving it into the next Biolysis. Considering how strong Whispering Dawn still is, I'd say a clip is still pretty damn cheap.

This is a good change for the sake of balance. Most of the changes they've done are good for the sake of balance and the future development of healers.

If getting rid of them is justification for giving us something better, then they need to give us something better when they take them away. You do not go to the store and get a donut for free on the premise that you will pay them later, you give them the money and you get the donut then and there. It's the same concept here, would I mind more interesting variants of older dps abilities? absolutely not, it'd be nice to see. People have brought up giving SCH dots, but only being allowed to put up so many at once, with whatever combination you put on giving different debuffs to the enemies, and that sounds like a great idea I'd love to see in practice, but that's not something I could expect for 2 years minimum, but realistically, is never happening.

Just saying "they are dumb" is not a justification, my argument was it was more to manage, ergo being more you could forget, making it feel better when you didn't forget and kept things up. Was it perfect? No, but it was better than what we have now, and unless they can actually give us something better, then I want what I had because it was better than what we have now.

Clipping is only better if you have the ping for it, and that, again, feels terrible to do. Clipping will always feel terrible to do, even if it is the more optimal thing in a situation, it never feels right doing it. and WD is stronger than mediac II? since when? yeah, it has a higher potency, but it scales off fairy stats, not yours, and as such, is weaker. Testing it now, on my WHM at level 70, with all alliance raid gear (put my omega gear in my glam chest) medica II regen ticked more. Not to mention you can keep medica II up as much as you want, you could have it on the entire fight if you hated your MP that much, VS the 20 seconds every 60 seconds you can have WD up. Having fairy not tied to GCDs or oGCDs was not OP, because, again, the fairy itself was not OP. and the embrace nerf was not justified because it heals half of what it used to when everyone has more HP, I don't know what a 3k heal is going to do on a tank that has 115k+ hp, I'd have been okay if it stayed the same at around 6k for the sake of it not healing crazy absurd amounts. The entire point of the fairy is to save me and my co-healer some healing, to take some of the burden off of our shoulders, and with her having to be weaved in now, as well as just being less effective in general, she just doesn't anymore.

[Cherub]

Clipping is only better if you have the ping for it, and that, again, feels terrible to do. [...] and with her having to be weaved in now, as well as just being less effective in general, she just doesn't anymore.

Reading this made me so angry because it's the truth. Clipping feels worse than ever before, the focus on DPS is now higher than ever before, previously it was more complex but you had more sources of damage and some of them being instant cast or in Bio's case, instant and you'd have to reapply it more often than a 30 second dot. At least before we had some more leeway with being able to use fairy skills during GCD casts. Now it just feels so punishing to simply clip a single broil because that is your major DPS source.
And then the fairy healing for about the same as she healed 3 years ago. Before, the fairy felt so impactful and important and now she is just a medium for CD's that feel bad to use because you have to clip your Broils for a measly heal. Embraces may as well not exist at all at this point. Feels like it doesn't exist even. Making broil a 2 second cast and simply buffing fairy potency, especially on Embrace, is all I ask for now. It's just so frustrating and it agitates me so much thinking about it and about how they won't acknowledge these problems on SCH and the other problems the job still has and obviously the other healers too. I also wish Energy drain would interact with your aetherflow heals and not lock them out. WHM got a system where heals lead to DPS and for SCH we have to sacrifice healing in favor of DPS. It felt good to use healing skills with SCH, now it all better be energy drain for that sick deepz. There could have been a more elegant solution for aetherflow dumping. One solution that may even support THEIR idea of having an expansion where healers assume a more pure healer role. Instead they just pushed the focus on DPS on healers to a next level. I have to feel bad clipping my broils now.

[Hatstand]

I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.

Have SCHs ever received a new dps skill? I'm trying to think of something we didn't have in 2.0, and all I'm coming up with is chain stratagem, which isn't exactly that interesting to use, and Art of War, which is basically miasma 2 without the DoT. By contrast, they've taken away heaps of offensive skills. There's no observable correlation between taking away old damage skills and adding new, more interesting ones for SCH.

I'd love some more interesting offensive skills, but those take time and effort to create, and we've seen no evidence that SE is willing to put in that time and effort. Putting back what they took away is a much lower bar.

[Sloprano]

I do agree that it's easier because passive MP regen is increased and Lucid Dreaming is twice as strong now. But my point is that it's more punishing because when you mess up there are no outside bailouts. What basically happened is that Manashift and Refresh have been incorporated into our passive regen and Lucid Dreaming. It is now up to us to keep this level of regen up by paying attention to Lucid. Delaying or failing Lucid quite simply costs more than it did in SB. We can go round and round like this forever, but all you need to do is go back 1 month in time and look at all the threads complaining about MP regen to see how much people were relying on outside sources. You'll even find my posts saying that MP regen is fine and that all you need to do is keep Lucid rolling.

For Lucid Dream, feel that skill still belongs to WHM. And SCH and AST have their own unique ways to deal with mana shortage. Like Aetherflow giving 20% mana instead and mana cost adjusted so if you find having to spam Succor and multiple resses you need to rely on your party to back you up.

I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.

The prospect of reciving something that is much more interesting and fun than the Arcanist skills would be very welcome and I know the developers are up to the task. Reason I want to have them back is that we haven't gotten anything as interesting since ARR. Multiple dots, Shadowflare and such all worked because they were seperate. No combos or preqequisites. You spent 5 gcds, say 12.5 seconds putting them all up. Then it became a game of memorizing durations, application order with cleric stance, current mob situation and finding room for Shadowflare's 3 second cast time. There is more to it, but I'll stop there. If get something as or leagues more engaging that the above I know I'll stop asking for old spells back.

Embrace nerf was completely warranted. It was a free permanent Regen. Then Whispering Dawn. Of course it felt better to use, you could do it any time and it had zero cost. You could do up to ten of them in a 10 minute fight. Ten better versions of Medica II at no cost. Now? You have to clip a Broil, not sacrifice it. Unless of course you can get away with weaving it into the next Biolysis. Considering how strong Whispering Dawn still is, I'd say a clip is still pretty damn cheap.

This is a good change for the sake of balance. Most of the changes they've done are good for the sake of balance and the future development of healers.

It was probably good for balance, I have no numbers so I can't check. All I know is that it gave me less to do. Ever since HW I wanted more ways to use the fairy, not as free healing battery, but as a requirement to perform the job fully. I had hopes the fairy gauge would do this, further making the Scholar's healing weaker and letting me use the Gauge to further enchance her to make up for that I can only help reduce damage.

What we got was the exact opposite: No longer need to look after the fairy, she is a free heal bot I can barely control and the Gauge takes 4 Atherflows (in combat) to fill up for a slightly better Rouse. Old Fairy was probably not better but she was much better to engage and play with that what we got.