Disrespectful and Dismissive.

[Lagomorph]

Because SE has quite obviously stated through action that healers will not get many DPS buttons. So if we do get any DPS actions, I think we all want them to be more interesting than Miasma or Shadowflare. Ideally, involving the fairy gauge.

That's fine and all, I'd be happy that these things are gone if we actually got something to replace them. You saying that these things can't exist because they would prevent new additions to our kit is pretty fallacious though. There is no reason that these abilities couldn't have been removed only when their suitable replacements were ready. Deleting them in 5.0 and leaving them gone for 2 years until they will (presumably) be replaced in 6.0 just makes no sense. Don't you think you're making a few too many assumptions here?

Also:

Then they really should have put the better stuff in. I'm getting tired of MMORPG developers telling me they've deleted my spells to make room for other stuff they haven't bothered to come up with yet. :/

I did not tell you that.

When you said the following:

The existence of Bane, Miasma, Shadowflare today would preclude the existence of anything better than that in the future.

????

You literally said it here lol

[LariaKirin]

It's more of a personal management thing, yes, but lucid has been made so strong, just use it every 60 seconds and that's it, you dont need to be babied on others for mana anymore because of that change, if anything it has become easier, because now you dont need a BRD just for the refresh, you dont need a mage just for the mana shift, you arent screwed without them, and you arent dependent on them, making it much easier and more forgiving, because even if you screw up, its not on nearly as long of a CD. If you died right after using lucid in SB, manashift only got you so far and you had 2 minutes until lucid was up, now you have 60 seconds.

I do agree that it's easier because passive MP regen is increased and Lucid Dreaming is twice as strong now. But my point is that it's more punishing because when you mess up there are no outside bailouts. What basically happened is that Manashift and Refresh have been incorporated into our passive regen and Lucid Dreaming. It is now up to us to keep this level of regen up by paying attention to Lucid. Delaying or failing Lucid quite simply costs more than it did in SB. We can go round and round like this forever, but all you need to do is go back 1 month in time and look at all the threads complaining about MP regen to see how much people were relying on outside sources. You'll even find my posts saying that MP regen is fine and that all you need to do is keep Lucid rolling.

Why you dont want those abilities, I couldn't tell you, because the only one you have put any justification I could possibly understand is miasma II, because it did genuinely not make sense for a dot to be your only AoE option, which is why I say AoW wouldve been a great compliment to it, but not a good replacement. The other ones though? You dumb them down to their simplest possible explanation "it's a button you press every x seconds" you can make anything sound insignificant if you dumb it down that far.

I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.

And I hardly agree they were OP because the abilities themselves were not OP, especially now after fairy got nerfed to high heaven. Even if it was OP not having them ties to the GCD or oGCD, it doesnt change it *felt* so much better to use, even if, as you put it, it didnt require much thinking (which I will disagree with, but you have every right to your opinion) because SCH has so many oGCD abilities, it was so relieving to have SOMETHING I didnt have to weave in, to have something I could just do. Having them be oGCD does not require more thinking, it just makes it more annoying because now I have to sacrifice a broil for it and use a ruin II.

Embrace nerf was completely warranted. It was a free permanent Regen. Then Whispering Dawn. Of course it felt better to use, you could do it any time and it had zero cost. You could do up to ten of them in a 10 minute fight. Ten better versions of Medica II at no cost. Now? You have to clip a Broil, not sacrifice it. Unless of course you can get away with weaving it into the next Biolysis. Considering how strong Whispering Dawn still is, I'd say a clip is still pretty damn cheap.

This is a good change for the sake of balance. Most of the changes they've done are good for the sake of balance and the future development of healers.

[Sloprano]

Arcanist Relics:

snip

So, friend, move on from outdated button bloat and ask for more meaningful fairy gauge and Aetherflow interactions.

If we're talking relics I find it prudent to go even further back. Back when there were five dots on different durations to track. When Miasma had Heavy and Misery, Ruin II had Blind, we had Cleric Stance and Shadowflare was casted, had no cooldown and gave Slow. While casting any of these or waiting on GCD we could tell the fairy to do something, like pick up our healing slack. And a lot of other different things.

The single application of each of these had little effect, but it was the coming together that made it feel so great.

I carry a very nostalgic of 3.0 because I could go into anywhere and know it's not the Duty I'm looking forward to, it's seeing how much more of all these skills I can exploit in the time before healthbards drops beyond Lily's capabilities. I would love to see better and interesting uses of Fairy Gauge instead, more tools to control the fight, something new so the job can evolve. All I've gotten are more ways to fill up healthbars that I never had a problem to begin with. What used to be an even split between offensive/support/healing skills have gotten to 5/10/12 and most of those support and healing skills gathers dust outside of a couple pulls and fights in the game's ever increasing number of <level 80 instanced Duties and Fates.

[tikiwiki]

Let me put it this way. The existence of Bane, Miasma, Shadowflare today would preclude the existence of anything better than that in the future.

but we used to have more than that with them slowly taking away why would getting SOME of our old skills back prevent new things from being made or changed in the future do edrain or hagakure prevent new good things from being made?

[Billythepancake]

I do agree that it's easier because passive MP regen is increased and Lucid Dreaming is twice as strong now. But my point is that it's more punishing because when you mess up there are no outside bailouts. What basically happened is that Manashift and Refresh have been incorporated into our passive regen and Lucid Dreaming. It is now up to us to keep this level of regen up by paying attention to Lucid. Delaying or failing Lucid quite simply costs more than it did in SB. We can go round and round like this forever, but all you need to do is go back 1 month in time and look at all the threads complaining about MP regen to see how much people were relying on outside sources. You'll even find my posts saying that MP regen is fine and that all you need to do is keep Lucid rolling.



I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.



Embrace nerf was completely warranted. It was a free permanent Regen. Then Whispering Dawn. Of course it felt better to use, you could do it any time and it had zero cost. You could do up to ten of them in a 10 minute fight. Ten better versions of Medica II at no cost. Now? You have to clip a Broil, not sacrifice it. Unless of course you can get away with weaving it into the next Biolysis. Considering how strong Whispering Dawn still is, I'd say a clip is still pretty damn cheap.

This is a good change for the sake of balance. Most of the changes they've done are good for the sake of balance and the future development of healers.

If getting rid of them is justification for giving us something better, then they need to give us something better when they take them away. You do not go to the store and get a donut for free on the premise that you will pay them later, you give them the money and you get the donut then and there. It's the same concept here, would I mind more interesting variants of older dps abilities? absolutely not, it'd be nice to see. People have brought up giving SCH dots, but only being allowed to put up so many at once, with whatever combination you put on giving different debuffs to the enemies, and that sounds like a great idea I'd love to see in practice, but that's not something I could expect for 2 years minimum, but realistically, is never happening.

Just saying "they are dumb" is not a justification, my argument was it was more to manage, ergo being more you could forget, making it feel better when you didn't forget and kept things up. Was it perfect? No, but it was better than what we have now, and unless they can actually give us something better, then I want what I had because it was better than what we have now.

Clipping is only better if you have the ping for it, and that, again, feels terrible to do. Clipping will always feel terrible to do, even if it is the more optimal thing in a situation, it never feels right doing it. and WD is stronger than mediac II? since when? yeah, it has a higher potency, but it scales off fairy stats, not yours, and as such, is weaker. Testing it now, on my WHM at level 70, with all alliance raid gear (put my omega gear in my glam chest) medica II regen ticked more. Not to mention you can keep medica II up as much as you want, you could have it on the entire fight if you hated your MP that much, VS the 20 seconds every 60 seconds you can have WD up. Having fairy not tied to GCDs or oGCDs was not OP, because, again, the fairy itself was not OP. and the embrace nerf was not justified because it heals half of what it used to when everyone has more HP, I don't know what a 3k heal is going to do on a tank that has 115k+ hp, I'd have been okay if it stayed the same at around 6k for the sake of it not healing crazy absurd amounts. The entire point of the fairy is to save me and my co-healer some healing, to take some of the burden off of our shoulders, and with her having to be weaved in now, as well as just being less effective in general, she just doesn't anymore.

[Hatstand]

I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.

Have SCHs ever received a new dps skill? I'm trying to think of something we didn't have in 2.0, and all I'm coming up with is chain stratagem, which isn't exactly that interesting to use, and Art of War, which is basically miasma 2 without the DoT. By contrast, they've taken away heaps of offensive skills. There's no observable correlation between taking away old damage skills and adding new, more interesting ones for SCH.

I'd love some more interesting offensive skills, but those take time and effort to create, and we've seen no evidence that SE is willing to put in that time and effort. Putting back what they took away is a much lower bar.

[Sloprano]

I do agree that it's easier because passive MP regen is increased and Lucid Dreaming is twice as strong now. But my point is that it's more punishing because when you mess up there are no outside bailouts. What basically happened is that Manashift and Refresh have been incorporated into our passive regen and Lucid Dreaming. It is now up to us to keep this level of regen up by paying attention to Lucid. Delaying or failing Lucid quite simply costs more than it did in SB. We can go round and round like this forever, but all you need to do is go back 1 month in time and look at all the threads complaining about MP regen to see how much people were relying on outside sources. You'll even find my posts saying that MP regen is fine and that all you need to do is keep Lucid rolling.

For Lucid Dream, feel that skill still belongs to WHM. And SCH and AST have their own unique ways to deal with mana shortage. Like Aetherflow giving 20% mana instead and mana cost adjusted so if you find having to spam Succor and multiple resses you need to rely on your party to back you up.

I dumb them down because they are dumb. I don't want them because they were badly designed skills that came from 2.0 Arcanist, they were uninteresting and they were holding SCH back from evolving into its own job. Squeenix have made it abundantly clear that they do not want to add too many DPS abilities to healers. Therefore, I see it as a problem that you're asking for the old outdated abilities back instead of asking for new, more interesting ones.

If we complain enough, there's a chance they will add something more to the healers. So if they do decide to add a new DPS spell in the future, I would much rather it be something that interacts with the Fairy Gauge instead of Miasma. That is why I will continue to emphasize how uninteresting our DPS abilities were.

The prospect of reciving something that is much more interesting and fun than the Arcanist skills would be very welcome and I know the developers are up to the task. Reason I want to have them back is that we haven't gotten anything as interesting since ARR. Multiple dots, Shadowflare and such all worked because they were seperate. No combos or preqequisites. You spent 5 gcds, say 12.5 seconds putting them all up. Then it became a game of memorizing durations, application order with cleric stance, current mob situation and finding room for Shadowflare's 3 second cast time. There is more to it, but I'll stop there. If get something as or leagues more engaging that the above I know I'll stop asking for old spells back.

Embrace nerf was completely warranted. It was a free permanent Regen. Then Whispering Dawn. Of course it felt better to use, you could do it any time and it had zero cost. You could do up to ten of them in a 10 minute fight. Ten better versions of Medica II at no cost. Now? You have to clip a Broil, not sacrifice it. Unless of course you can get away with weaving it into the next Biolysis. Considering how strong Whispering Dawn still is, I'd say a clip is still pretty damn cheap.

This is a good change for the sake of balance. Most of the changes they've done are good for the sake of balance and the future development of healers.

It was probably good for balance, I have no numbers so I can't check. All I know is that it gave me less to do. Ever since HW I wanted more ways to use the fairy, not as free healing battery, but as a requirement to perform the job fully. I had hopes the fairy gauge would do this, further making the Scholar's healing weaker and letting me use the Gauge to further enchance her to make up for that I can only help reduce damage.

What we got was the exact opposite: No longer need to look after the fairy, she is a free heal bot I can barely control and the Gauge takes 4 Atherflows (in combat) to fill up for a slightly better Rouse. Old Fairy was probably not better but she was much better to engage and play with that what we got.

[LariaKirin]

That's fine and all, I'd be happy that these things are gone if we actually got something to replace them. You saying that these things can't exist because they would prevent new additions to our kit is pretty fallacious though. There is no reason that these abilities couldn't have been removed only when their suitable replacements were ready. Deleting them in 5.0 and leaving them gone for 2 years until they will (presumably) be replaced in 6.0 just makes no sense. Don't you think you're making a few too many assumptions here?

It's not fallacious. Given their track record, deleting and replacing with new skills is not something they're going to do outside of a rework. How often do they rework jobs? Not often, in my experience. They've shown they're willing to make more impactful changes (Ninja) with in the latest live letter. I wonder how that will turn out.

What am I assuming? I'm not assuming anything. I don't know what they're planning. The focus of SHB has clearly been healer balance and making them blank slates. This is undeniably the best time to ask for something new. So instead of "Yoshida, SCH dps is boring during downtime, can we have Miasma back?", I would ask "Yoshida, SCH dps is boring during downtime, can we have a DPS spell tied to Fairy Gauge?". It could be a Miasma that costs Fairy Gauge for all I care. It's the interaction with Fairy Gauge I'm interested in.

If you are under the impression that I'm saying they will do it, then perhaps I've not been clear. I'm saying our old DPS spells are the wrong things to ask for.

You literally said it here lol

"They deleted your abilities to make room for new ones" and "Keeping Bane, Miasma and Shadowflare precludes SCH from getting anything better in the future" are two very different statements that say very different things.

[Lagomorph]

It's not fallacious. Given their track record, deleting and replacing with new skills is not something they're going to do outside of a rework. How often do they rework jobs? Not often, in my experience. They've shown they're willing to make more impactful changes (Ninja) with in the latest live letter. I wonder how that will turn out.

It depends entirely on what you consider to be "replacing."

On warrior: Brutal swing was deleted as an ogcd, but now they have upheaval and onslaught as ogcds as well as low blow for stuns.

On monk: Wind tackle is gone, but they can still do openers without perfect balance thanks to anatman

On dragoon: Internal release is no longer able to be cross-classed, but dragon sight acquired

I could go on and on if you wanted me to. Clearly this doesn't happen with all skills that are pruned. Often skills are deleted without having a suitable replacement, but it isn't always the case, and it didn't have to be with healers.

What am I assuming? I'm not assuming anything. I don't know what they're planning. The focus of SHB has clearly been healer balance and making them blank slates.

Assumption: You think that having older spells will prevent SE from creating newer more interesting spells, for whatever reason. Also that kinda contradicts you saying that you "don't know what they're planning."

Assumption: "The focus of SHB has clearly been healer balance and making them blank slates." If they said anything about "blank slates" please point me into the direction where I can find where this was said. Otherwise, it is your assumption that "blank slates" was their goal. It is my assumption that they just do not know how healing works in this game. Neither of us can prove either of these claims.

This is undeniably the best time to ask for something new. So instead of "Yoshida, SCH dps is boring during downtime, can we have Miasma back?", I would ask "Yoshida, SCH dps is boring during downtime, can we have a DPS spell tied to Fairy Gauge?". It could be a Miasma that costs Fairy Gauge for all I care. It's the interaction with Fairy Gauge I'm interested in.

If you are under the impression that I'm saying they will do it, then perhaps I've not been clear. I'm saying our old DPS spells are the wrong things to ask for.

This is a question I would gladly ask if I had any confidence that SE could deliver it without having to wait 2 years for the next expansion. Of course I want more interesting abilities that fit with sch better both mechanically and thematically. I don't have any confidence that SE cares enough to do something like that for us healers in the near future, so the next best thing would be to get back some old deleted abilities. Was it perfect in stormblood? Far from it, but it was still less boring than it is right now. Furthermore, SE has inspired very little faith in me that they have even the slightest clue what they are doing, so I don't exactly have high hopes that more engaging gameplay will be coming in 6.0. Even if I could be sure that positive changes were on the way, it's a bit sad to be talking about 6.0 this early into shadowbringers isn't it?

The reason why so many people are asking for deleted skills back is because it's a low-effort way that SE could make a lot of players more happy with the jobs. If they could choose to have more interesting abilities added, I'm sure everyone complaining about not having miasma, shadow flare, etc would prefer the new abilities instead. In my mind, this is a question of asking for what we want most vs asking for what we are most likely to get.

"They deleted your abilities to make room for new ones" and "Keeping Bane, Miasma and Shadowflare precludes SCH from getting anything better in the future" are two very different statements that say very different things.

I don't see how either of these are open to interpretation and they essentially carry the same implications. Perhaps you meant differently from what you said, but I'm not a mind reader, sorry.

[Gestahl-Beoulve]

Judging from all previous posts, I'm now convinced that LariaKirin is actually the healer design dev defending the mess that is now healers.