Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Siete]

Classes are good just like this.
If anything, bring up the other classes just a little but not too much.
Or review the party benefits NIN and SMN give, they're quite bad.

[HyoMinPark]

Classes are good just like this.
If anything, bring up the other classes just a little but not too much.
Or review the party benefits NIN and SMN give, they're quite bad.

Hard disagree on jobs being fine right now. SAM isn’t fine when MNK brings ~800 more rDPS at the 95th percentile than a job that doesn’t have any party utility (and this isn’t even addressing the difference between MNK/DRG/SAM against NIN, which is 1,388/1,005/595, respectfully). Same with BLM and SMN: the difference is even larger between them, with it being over 1,100 rDPS at the 95th percentile for All Bosses. BLM is 1,386 rDPS above RDM.

There needs to be some adjustments made.

[Siete]

Hard disagree on jobs being fine right now. SAM isn’t fine when MNK brings ~800 more rDPS at the 95th percentile than a job that doesn’t have any party utility (and this isn’t even addressing the difference between MNK/DRG/SAM against NIN, which is 1,388/1,005/595, respectfully). Same with BLM and SMN: the difference is even larger between them, with it being over 1,100 rDPS at the 95th percentile for All Bosses. BLM is 1,386 rDPS above RDM.

There needs to be some adjustments made.

MNK is as easy to play as SAM tho?
NIN is ded tho.

[HyoMinPark]

MNK is as easy to play as SAM tho?
NIN is ded tho.

That doesn’t matter. MNK has utility (Mantra for AOE healing buff on the party every 90s, and Brotherhood for straight damage for any physical job every 90s) where as SAM has nothing but its damage as it’s “utility”—and its damage is sorely lacking. MNK is straight up better than SAM if one considers its rDPS and utility compared to SAM’s lack of both. SAM’s rDPS needs to be brought up to be directly competitive with MNK’s current rDPS, and this would come from either a buff to its personal damage, a direct nerf to MNK’s damage, or a degree of both.

Likewise with DRG, SAM needs to bring more rDPS to compete with it as well—DRG may not have piercing anymore, but it still has Battle Litany and Dragon Sight. SAM has nothing.

NIN needs a lot of help to be competitive with both the utility jobs (MNK/DRG), and SAM (to a lesser extent, but enough to where bringing one or the other is not a direct hinderance to your party). It’s apparent that the development’s utility tax on TA is far too high, given how it went from one of the most popular and most desired jobs to one with the least amount of representation amongst the DPS jobs in current uploads.

So basically you're suggesting all the DPS roles should be the same?? No thanks. My BLM has basically one thing going for it, and that's the amount of damage it can deal. Why should BLM deal the same amount of damage that other DPS roles deal who also have buffs, debuffs, heals, rez options, etc.?

They aren’t talking about personal damage, but raid damage. rDPS is the more important metric here. BLM can have all the personal damage it wants—but the other casters need to be brought up to be directly competitive with it. Right now, there is no competition between BLM and SMN/RDM: the former obliterates the latter two in rDPS contribution despite having no inherent utility.

Raise is also a poor utility to tax damage heavily on, as it stops being useful once you move past progression and into farming/optimization territory. A light tax is fine. But an ~1,000+ rDPS difference is not.

[Zerathor]

Same with BLM and SMN: the difference is even larger between them, with it being over 1,100 rDPS at the 95th percentile for All Bosses. BLM is 1,386 rDPS above RDM.

There needs to be some adjustments made.

It's almost as if raise is a game changing ability that should not be free to have access to. Remove dps raise then we'll talk. Until then, they shouldn't even be close or we'll just face the same issue as stormblood.

Raise is also a poor utility to tax damage heavily on, as it stops being useful once you move past progression and into farming/optimization territory. A light tax is fine. But an ~1,000+ rDPS difference is not.

It was a miniscule tax once upon a time. It made black mage irrelevant because people were fine losing 200-400 dps for the sheer broken levels of consistency a dps raise will bring. Hell, some fights it would do even more. It is the strongest safety net that makes slip ups not turn into a wipe. With the miniscule loss and raise, smn was a perfect prog and speed run job for absolutely no good reason regarding balance.

[Siccoroa]

DPS raise is in no way worth anywhere near 1000 DPS.

The problem in stormblood was that smn did 200 DPS less than blm before accounting for raid DPS. Which led to smn do a couple hundred more DPS than blm after accounting for raid DPS. The problem right now is that even when accounting for raid DPS, blm does 1000+ more DPS than other casters. The problem is is that there is no reason to play smn or rdm when blm is as strong as it is. A 50th percentile blm contributes more to a raid than a 90th percentile smn. A 30th percentile blm contributes more to a raid than a 90th percentile rdm

[Alym]

It's almost as if raise is a game changing ability that should not be free to have access to. Remove dps raise then we'll talk. Until then, they shouldn't even be close or we'll just face the same issue as stormblood.



It was a miniscule tax once upon a time. It made black mage irrelevant because people were fine losing 200-400 dps for the sheer broken levels of consistency a dps raise will bring. Hell, some fights it would do even more. It is the strongest safety net that makes slip ups not turn into a wipe. With the miniscule loss and raise, smn was a perfect prog and speed run job for absolutely no good reason regarding balance.

I love all the casters near equally and have mained all of them at some point. SMN and RDM were caster darlings in SB and now it's BLM. BLM now completely pushes both others out of relevancy and while you may enjoy it now that BLM is on top, remember how that felt during SB when BLM was irrelevant. This current situation with BLM is not balance either, same as how it wasn't balance when SMN (and RDM to a lesser extent) were vastly better.

One thing you bring up, though, is very important and I talk about it as much as I can: caster Raise. I've seen multiple posts on the JP side SMN thread calling for its removal with 30 or so likes each but when I or someone else post about it in NA forums it never gains traction and I've found it incredibly frustrating. The biggest and most common factor that really severely harms caster balance is Raise. In SB, it made BLM the odd one out. Now, in ShB, it makes SMN and RDM far too weak. In the live letter, Yoshi even mentioned lack of Raise as a reason for BLM's huge damage. It makes balancing casters seemingly impossible for the dev team.

Raise is at the same time very powerful and very weak for SMN and RDM. During prog, it's incredibly strong as it allows you to see more mechanics by preventing wipes. After that, it's usefulness drops considerably but the DPS tax for SMN and RDM remains forever. And the ShB Raise DPS tax is far far heavier than it has ever been. It's so heavy, it allows BLM to shove SMN and RDM out of relevancy.

The best solutions are to make Raise a caster role action as an oGCD with an enormously long CD, or to remove Raise from SMN and RDM. Anything else and it just serves to destroy caster balance.

[Zerathor]

I love all the casters near equally and have mained all of them at some point. SMN and RDM were caster darlings in SB and now it's BLM. BLM now completely pushes both others out of relevancy and while you may enjoy it now that BLM is on top, remember how that felt during SB when BLM was irrelevant. This current situation with BLM is not balance either, same as how it wasn't balance when SMN (and RDM to a lesser extent) were vastly better.

One thing you bring up, though, is very important and I talk about it as much as I can: caster Raise. I've seen multiple posts on the JP side SMN thread calling for its removal with 30 or so likes each but when I or someone else post about it in NA forums it never gains traction and I've found it incredibly frustrating. The biggest and most common factor that really severely harms caster balance is Raise. In SB, it made BLM the odd one out. Now, in ShB, it makes SMN and RDM far too weak. In the live letter, Yoshi even mentioned lack of Raise as a reason for BLM's huge damage. It makes balancing casters seemingly impossible for the dev team.

Raise is at the same time very powerful and very weak for SMN and RDM. During prog, it's incredibly strong as it allows you to see more mechanics by preventing wipes. After that, it's usefulness drops considerably but the DPS tax for SMN and RDM remains forever. And the ShB Raise DPS tax is far far heavier than it has ever been. It's so heavy, it allows BLM to shove SMN and RDM out of relevancy.

The best solution is to make Raise a caster role action as an oGCD with an enormously long CD, or to remove Raise from SMN and RDM. Anything else and it just serves to destroy caster balance.

The disparity we see now isn't what it was.
Here's deltascape
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17

Here's eden currently
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29

Casters roughly equal in runs, rdm sagging behind a little bit.

I'd be all for them being equal r damage if raise is removed but even if it's not, this is what balance looks like (for the casters at least). They're not in bad spots. They're just not overtuned anymore. Nowhere near being pushed to irrelevancy.

[Alym]

The disparity we see now isn't what it was.
Here's deltascape
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17

Here's eden currently
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29

Casters roughly equal in runs, rdm sagging behind a little bit.

I'd be all for them being equal r damage if raise is removed but even if it's not, this is what balance looks like (for the casters at least). They're not in bad spots. They're just not overtuned anymore. Nowhere near being pushed to irrelevancy.

I don't believe that the number of people playing each class directly correlates to class balance. EDIT: Misread which SB Raid he was referring to.

Regardless, BLM is so good that it makes the other casters irrelevant. After all utility and personal dps, BLM still outdamages the others by over 1,000 dps. That's at least 660,000 damage over an 11 minute fight. That disparity is the difference between enrage and clear, and using Raise only makes that worse by hurting the SMN and RDM dps in using the action and by adding in weakness to the Raised player. The disparity is far too great.

[Zerathor]

I don't believe that the number of people playing each class directly correlates to class balance. EDIT: Misread which SB Raid he was referring to.

Regardless, BLM is so good that it makes the other casters irrelevant. After all utility and personal dps, BLM still outdamages the others by over 1,000 dps. That's at least 660,000 damage over an 11 minute fight. That disparity is the difference between enrage and clear, and using Raise only makes that worse by hurting the SMN and RDM dps in using the action and by adding in weakness to the Raised player. The disparity is far too great.

Irrelevant
Jobs
Aren't
Played

Especially in similar numbers.
Irrelevant Jobs get shoehorned into using a different job or get kicked from a static. Irrelevant Jobs can't even get into decent statics. Irrelevant Jobs get blacklisted in party finder. Irrelevant Jobs are viewed as too much of a handicap for the group to clear a fight.