Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Kabooa]

You are talking by pdps right? Because those rpds number wont be reached with the bottom 4, considering the bottom 4 have ninja and dancer in it, and their rdps wont scale as high without any high pdps there

Going by ADPS (As in, PDPS + group wide buffs, AKA ignoring single target padding)

70,400. Add in a single target limit breaks (700-1000) Add another 800 or so for single buffing the Bard with Dancer. 71,900-72,200. Beats Eden, Void, and Leviathan for certain.

[Kejara]

Job DPS is determined by raid utility and difficulty. SMN and Nin needs to be brought up badly. As for the rest, don't be surprised that your RDM isn't doing SAM level DPS when it's the easiest job in the game.

If what you say about it being determined by difficulty is indeed true and not your personal opinion then it is a terrible way to balance a game. "Easiness" is entirely subjective. What makes a class easier? Less APM? Less overall abilities? Easier and overall more repetitive button sequences? Cast times or lack thereof? A game should never be based on whether someone believes a class to be "easier". RDM still has cast bars and many people hate casting because they feel constrained by having to stand in place. I hope nobody truly expects RDM to do SAM/MNK/DRG/BLM damage and I'm sure your statement was pure hyperbole but its current placement in the DPS hierarchy is certainly not warranted, regardless of whether you or anybody else for that matter, believes it to be easy. People pick a job, I hope, at least the majority of the time, because they enjoy the way it plays in game content. Any of the classes can be mastered fairly easily with enough repetition and difficulty is relative. Mastering difficult encounter mechanics while coordinating with seven other guys is the real challenge here. Currently, RDM is second to only Ninja in the amount of parses submitted to FF logs. Here's a hint. There probably exists a positive correlation between log submission counts for a particular class and class effectiveness/popularity. I suppose RDM is that low on the totem pole because it's just too easy for everybody and it has nothing to do with the fact that people tend to pick jobs that are the most effective in clearing content.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Going by ADPS (As in, PDPS + group wide buffs, AKA ignoring single target padding)

70,400. Add in a single target limit breaks (700-1000) Add another 800 or so for single buffing the Bard with Dancer. 71,900-72,200. Beats Eden, Void, and Leviathan for certain.

Cant argue that isnt possible then. So ill have to accept that.

Also at least i know if im geared and skilled enough i can do it. But thats at a higher end efficiency. Saying everyone makes use of everything and isnt dying and what not. Also a much tighter window. That still however doesnt address that some are in a rather broken state. Being able to down content doesnt necessarily mean everything is working like it should.

Do you think all the classes are working optimally then? Do you think some need to be shifted? Do you think utility needs to be looked at for rework? How would you imagine pdps vs rdps to look like

(Also, when someone is playing in a class and feeling like their class doesnt contribute, chances are they ARE looking in the mirror, so ya literally are kicking them when they are down)

[Siccoroa]

BLM does a lot of damage but our cast times are poo and we are incredibly squishy.

Try playing BLM on Eden's Titan. We need the high DPS to show why we are worth having because it is very easy to either die or lose cast opportunities to dodging.

I played a lot of blm during deltascape and sigmascape and I was pretty good at it. I know how blm works and all its limitations.

The point of my post is that even after attributing the damage gained from using utility skills to the person that cast them, blm still does 1000 DPS more than classes with utility.

[Drayos]

Job DPS is determined by raid utility and difficulty. SMN and Nin needs to be brought up badly. As for the rest, don't be surprised that your RDM isn't doing SAM level DPS when it's the easiest job in the game.

People need to stop with this mentality lol the games not based on difficulty. It never will be.

It’s balanced on RDPS value and mobility.

Difficulty is such a subjective thing when it comes down to middle road of the two that it’s impossible to measure.

Please stop with the lies, it’s never been stated balancing is done based on difficulty, the fact Ninja has been one of the harder jobs to play in SB yet remained bottom dps says it all.

The fact SAM is the easiest melee job but remained the top melee dps says it all.

RDPS and mobility is what is balanced by.

How much dps u will give to the group and to what degree will mechanics effect you.

[Kabooa]

Do you think all the classes are working optimally then? Do you think some need to be shifted? Do you think utility needs to be looked at for rework? How would you imagine pdps vs rdps to look like

It's savage. The entire point of the content is to throw yourself at it until you are good enough to clear it. Not only is information still being collated for pre-study (I know some false information is still going around), but Savage is tuned by the Developers at higher than current gear level. If you're coming in at entry item level (i450) you have to be on top of your game to beat the last wing.

Let me be quite clear on this next segment.

Even at its worst state in Stormblood (4.0) Black Mage was viable. When it was literally made obsolete by Summoner at the time, it was still viable. It was usable in the raids, there was just no pay off for the risk of bringing a raise-less Caster.

If you removed the buffs it got during Stormblood and revert Fire 4 back to 260, which is approximately 14% less Fire 4 damage, Black Mage's overall DPS lowers by 7%. Apply this broadly over the statistics and you'll see the difference between Black Mage and the other two casters to be within about 5% or so, which is where it was -when it was basically obsolete- by comparison.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17#dataset=90 Take a look for yourself. It'd be 5% over in Shadowbringers. In 4.0 Stormblood it was about 5% under. Still perfectly viable for killing content. Still obsolete.

So you'll excuse me if I don't take the plight of Summoners and Red Mages that seriously. Neither one of them are in nearly the same state right now that Black Mage was in. Not only are the two perfectly viable, they aren't horribly obsolete.

Now. Having said that, so you get an idea of my perspective on the matter.

I'm old school when it comes to who should have what and who does what and who should have the arbitrarily higher numbers.

It should be Sam >= Black Mage > Machinist > Melee > Casters > Ranged. Simply because those three in particular bring nothing else, Melee Uptime can go in the toilet for range reasons (though the Devs avoid being unfair in this regard), casters are in some regard rooted to the floor, and the Marksman of the game are the most unfettered jobs I've ever seen.

"Why not just bring those 3 and one more". If it were me, your "Cannons" would have an additional trait on them - Basically magnifying buffs given to them. So in this regard, a Black Mage -would- sit on the same bench as Summoner and Red Mage. However, a Raid team would ideally want the three roles covered ( Melee, Ranged, Caster) and then bring the cannon of their choice. There'd be little advantage to bringing multiple cannons, as at a baseline, no buff state, they'd be the same as the others.

As for what I think needs to happen (All opinion)
Monk needs to be toned down.

Samurai needs to be toned up. This can be achieved by improving Senei and returning Hagakure into an optimization action (Having it give Meditate instead of Kenki).

Ninja needs some flow issues addressed (A better ninja than me can elaborate here) and another slight potency boost. There's a thread that lists quite a few suggested changes. Some of them seem pretty good. A handful of them and the potency boost might not even be necessary.

Machinist could use some playability fixes, potentially a slight potency boost. Were it me, personally, it'd be by having the Queen count for boosting Wildfire.

Red Mage needs another facet of optimization. An old suggestion I favor is giving them appreciable auto attacks. This serves as both a small potency boost and an additional bridge into being the melee / caster job. Someone suggested having Red Mage's Raise have more opportunity cost by tying more damage to removing its availability. You can do this without causing much fuss by having some high MP cost, high potency spell options, or a mode that increases MP Cost and gives bonus potency. Something. Anything to add another lever.

No idea of Summoner. I avoid it like the plague after power leveling it for a specific boss in Gordias.

Bard needs tooltip fixes. Pog Champ. Also maybe some wide sweeping design changes that one cannot summarize in a sentence. Dancer but for Tanks. nevermind, that works out.

Dancer. Tech Step should just auto DCrit. There, i said it.

[Shurrikhan]

Dps differences between pure dpsers and those with utility is around their actual dps, not their rdps. Rdps is the addition of contribution. Sam is underpowered, and monk got too big of a buff (some of it was needed)

You dont want to balance around rdps specifically tho you need to take it into an account, for instance nin was behind dragoon by 1.5 ish and their TA didnt even make up the difference.

As for wanting the same rdps... you dont want that. Thatll make any dps utility redundant, as dps utilities are meant to be worked with (not apply and forget about it like pugs do) why have extra work for the same damage? You want pdps to change according to utility, but depending on that utility needs to scale according to its purpose.

Honesty SAM got shafted here, monk got top strong, and honestly smn and rdm need to be brought up

The site in question uses "rDPS" to mean [personal DPS contribution + indirect/party DPS contribution - indirect/party DPS contribution received from others], i.e. the damage you bring to the raid, not just the damage contribution you generate through the raid. We might as well use the terms used by the sole host of our relevant data if we're going to have meaningful discussion. (I too preferred pDPS, rDPS, and tDPS for total contribution, but whatever. Better clarity than precision in this case.)

[TaiyouSeishin]

The site in question uses "rDPS" to mean [personal DPS contribution + indirect/party DPS contribution - indirect/party DPS contribution received from others], i.e. the damage you bring to the raid, not just the damage contribution you generate through the raid. We might as well use the terms used by the sole host of our relevant data if we're going to have meaningful discussion. (I too preferred pDPS, rDPS, and tDPS for total contribution, but whatever. Better clarity than precision in this case.)

All i really meant is that rdps can be decieving. And that we all know utilities and PERSONAL dps are balanced against each other.

Ninja is probably in the worst state, because it was meta for so long it was probably nerfed to be more in line, the issue is that the nerf hit more than what i think was intended let alone the clipping and flow issues it has. TA plus their dps, doesnt equate to taking another melee instead. Will a clean up of ninja help this? If it brings their pdps more in line and closer to its counterparts yes, means TA may have a benefit then? Will ninja be top rdps? Doubt it, they dont want it meta again, but as long as other melee dont out right trump it with their personal dps, at least ppl wont be hindered by them (its a dps loss on average just having nin in the party) potency increase i never believe is the answer.

It should be Sam >= Black Mage > Machinist > Melee > Casters > Ranged. Simply because those three in particular bring nothing else, Melee Uptime can go in the toilet for range reasons (though the Devs avoid being unfair in this regard), casters are in some regard rooted to the floor, and the Marksman of the game are the most unfettered jobs I've ever seen.

"Why not just bring those 3 and one more". If it were me, your "Cannons" would have an additional trait on them - Basically magnifying buffs given to them. So in this regard, a Black Mage -would- sit on the same bench as Summoner and Red Mage. However, a Raid team would ideally want the three roles covered ( Melee, Ranged, Caster) and then bring the cannon of their choice. There'd be little advantage to bringing multiple cannons, as at a baseline, no buff state, they'd be the same as the others.

Sam above blm? o.o first i saw anyone put it there... >.>

The hierarchy makes sense to me, especially if they have that extra trait that boosted buffs on them, would be a nice touch, would that work with debuffs too? But would you consider that "utility?" I probably wouldnt, but it would make having a comp with at least one buffer more worthwhile, (may actually increase the worth of things like TA and embolden)

[Shurrikhan]

[1] All i really meant is that rdps can be decieving. And that we all know utilities and PERSONAL dps are balanced against each other.

Ninja is probably in the worst state, because it was meta for so long it was probably nerfed to be more in line, the issue is that the nerf hit more than what i think was intended let alone the clipping and flow issues it has. TA plus their dps, doesnt equate to taking another melee instead. Will a clean up of ninja help this? If it brings their pdps more in line and closer to its counterparts yes, means TA may have a benefit then? Will ninja be top rdps? Doubt it, they dont want it meta again, but as long as other melee dont out right trump it with their personal dps, at least ppl wont be hindered by them (its a dps loss on average just having nin in the party) potency increase i never believe is the answer.
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[2]Sam above blm? o.o first i saw anyone put it there... >.>

[1]Agreed; the community has done it no favors in forcing the developers to balance for usage between factual performance and, well, mythos/legacy of usefulness. Though, neither has its new less-than-ideal eccentricities -- like Meisui being a damage loss, etc.... And personally, I'm rather fearful of what will come with the "clean-up". I still enjoy NIN for the time being; I can't be so sure I will if Mudras are put onto the GCD instead.

[2]That probably comes from BLM now having more event-mobility than RDM and sometimes even SMN, while there a few mechanics which really only affect melee or more greatly affect non-instant-ranged this tier, most notably in Eden and especially Titan. But, the actual sign was >=, so it's only a possibility, alongside perfect balance between the two.

[Myon88]

I'm not sure if some of you realize what you're asking for, for jobs to be balanced according to their 'difficulty'. Even if you could objectively determine the difficulty of a job, is that really the kind of balance that would be healthy? There'd end up being only a handful of 'big boy' jobs being taken seriously by the community. Why not just make it official then, make a new category called 'expert jobs' and put blm or smn in there. Then everyone will know you're a bad-ass for playing a real job and deserve to be overpowered. We can recommend jobs like rdm and the ranged to new players. I'm sure some people would want a world like that.

I also don't really buy the argument that the ranged deserve to do less damage in real fights because 'melees and casters' lose uptime. Presumably, ranged are dps taxed and do less damage in a dummy situation because in a real fight with mechanics, they can continue to attack while other jobs lose damage, so that gap in dps will close. If you look at data from the real fights out now though, evidently that isn't the case. I'm sure you are well aware that in current fights (and most fights in general) a well played melee or blm already has practically full uptime on the boss when played properly. Leviathan and Titan have hitboxes the size of a barn, and blm received so many new movement tools you basically never have to stop casting if you know how to play the job well.

So what's happening here? Is it that fights are too easy? Player strategies are too good? Whatever the case, it raises the question of why ranged are being taxed in the first place.

It could be that ranged are being taxed because average melee/caster players do perform worse when faced with mechanics. It's not a very encouraging thought though, because it means ranged is basically being handicapped for the sake of balance around bad players. If this were the case, it's basically like saying if you're a good player you should only play blm and some of the melees, if you want to be rewarded for reaching the skill ceiling, while ranged have an artificially low skill ceiling. That doesn't sound very nice at all.