RDM and the Utility Tax

[Archwizard]

They fixed a symptom of the Raise tax, which was MP restrictions, but all honesty it was probably an accident that RDM had such an MP nerf. The devs are just trying to get MP costs to be easier to read at a glance ending with "00." Thats why they were adjusted to 5.0 levels. Lucid on a 1 min CD with an OGCD intensive window kit is what made MP feel so much worse, that and we had been so accustomed to refresh at a high level settings. They went on the gracious side of ending with "00" and gave RDM a huge MP buff, to the point where we can throw raises out like candy. We said "If our mp is so bad, how can we be a progression niche caster, shouldn't we limit raise to a cool down and.." Dev response: "MP BAD. WE FIX OK."

On the other hand, a big part of our identity in Stormblood was that our spell costs were only a fraction of those of other casters, and that Lucid Dreaming was all we needed to sustain it -- the concern then being that we were screwed on recovery if we put Lucid on CD and summarily died, now since mitigated by the reduced CD on Lucid as well.

MP costs aside however, so long as it's a GCD, Verraise continues to be one of the few utilities that features a personal DPS loss each time it's used... just less of one now.

[Zfz]

I feel that the real reason they gimp RDM dps this much is to maintain the BLM population. There's no denying that many players choose their main based primarily on the dps potential. If RDM is even within 10% of the BLM potential, then it's mobility, simple rotation and utility will probably win over too many BLM players. At the top end you will still have skilled BLM players, but the rest will be pulled towards RDM too strongly.

So it isn't just a utility tax, but also a population control tax, which is sad.

I haven't had a chance to level my BLM to 80, but perhaps the only solution is to continue to make QoL improvements and simplifying or streamlining the BLM rotation so that a significant dps advantage is no longer needed for people to keep playing BLM. I for one was one of those who gave up the BLM for RDM due to the much better gameplay, when the RDM was released.

Perhaps the devs laid down the rule that BLM must significantly outperform the RDM due to the early days of the RDM, and didn't revisit this rule when making improvements to the BLM, resulting in a artificial dps gap that could no longer be justified.

[Kabooa]

I feel that the real reason they gimp RDM dps this much is to maintain the BLM population. There's no denying that many players choose their main based primarily on the dps potential. If RDM is even within 10% of the BLM potential, then it's mobility, simple rotation and utility will probably win over too many BLM players. At the top end you will still have skilled BLM players, but the rest will be pulled towards RDM too strongly.

So it isn't just a utility tax, but also a population control tax, which is sad.

I haven't had a chance to level my BLM to 80, but perhaps the only solution is to continue to make QoL improvements and simplifying or streamlining the BLM rotation so that a significant dps advantage is no longer needed for people to keep playing BLM. I for one was one of those who gave up the BLM for RDM due to the much better gameplay, when the RDM was released.

Perhaps the devs laid down the rule that BLM must significantly outperform the RDM due to the early days of the RDM, and didn't revisit this rule when making improvements to the BLM, resulting in a artificial dps gap that could no longer be justified.

The earth isn't flat.

[wereotter]

I feel that the real reason they gimp RDM dps this much is to maintain the BLM population. There's no denying that many players choose their main based primarily on the dps potential. If RDM is even within 10% of the BLM potential, then it's mobility, simple rotation and utility will probably win over too many BLM players. At the top end you will still have skilled BLM players, but the rest will be pulled towards RDM too strongly.

So it isn't just a utility tax, but also a population control tax, which is sad.

I haven't had a chance to level my BLM to 80, but perhaps the only solution is to continue to make QoL improvements and simplifying or streamlining the BLM rotation so that a significant dps advantage is no longer needed for people to keep playing BLM. I for one was one of those who gave up the BLM for RDM due to the much better gameplay, when the RDM was released.

Perhaps the devs laid down the rule that BLM must significantly outperform the RDM due to the early days of the RDM, and didn't revisit this rule when making improvements to the BLM, resulting in a artificial dps gap that could no longer be justified.

Actually.... with all the instant casting BLM has in addition to Aetherial Manipulation and Between the Lines, black mage is nearly as mobile as any other caster, at least when it comes to required movement. Red mage is still the most consistently mobile job with summoner being the most mobile during dreadwyrm trance. Red mage has lower damage, not because of it's simplicity (black mage has a really simple rotation too) or its mobility, but because of its utility.

Square, I think, is over valuing the utility of verraise, vercure, and embolden, but these are the tools in our kit that have made Square decide that red mage should have the lowest personal DPS, ignoring that summoners have basically all these same skills with everlasting flight, resurrection, and devotion, while being nearly as mobile as red mages...

[Zfz]

The earth isn't flat.

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say with that response. If you think I've said something ridiculously retarded, please point it out.

Actually.... with all the instant casting BLM has in addition to Aetherial Manipulation and Between the Lines, black mage is nearly as mobile as any other caster, at least when it comes to required movement.

Yes, I'm referring to the possibility that back then when BLM had extremely low mobility they designed the RDM with that kind of BLM in mind, and that design premise just stayed with us even after BLM mobility and QoL has improved vastly.

IIRC in Heavensward there were fewer BLMs? It's so long ago, but Enochian and Ley Lines turned the simplistic proc-based Lv 50 BLM up-side down and made it very clunky to play.

But I also agree with the utility argument. Utility causing lower dps is already something they've said since 2.0. I'm just saying perhaps the relative ease of gameplay back then was a factor (which they should not consider anymore, with the improved BLM gameplay).

[Namir]

So the main problem here is that RDM and SMN have utility in raise that is situational, but they pay full time for it with lower DPS.

I think a way to remedy this would be to make raise a caster role action or leave it as is, doesn’t matter, but make it apply a “-20% damage dealt for 1 minute” debuff to the caster, call it “aetheric imbalance” or “aetheric overexertion”. Make it a stackable debuff in case that chain raises happen. I believe this would solve the problem, this way RDM and SMN (and BLM if they make it a caster role ability) would pay for their situational utility only if they use it and not full time like they pay for it now. It would also fit lorewise since casters are not healers, they are not accustomed to using aether to raise their comrades.

[Duskane]

RDM was gimped not so much in damage but most the new stuff it got is just pretty much nothing that gave it a boost it needed to keep up with other DPS did in those 10 levels

Scortch is nice

But Aoe trait that should have already been a thing not something learned at 78

Manafications terrible damage boost for 110 second CD

Displacement band aid

And reprise

They put more thought into the Aoe at lower levels than all the stuff 72-78

[LunarEmerald]

So the main problem here is that RDM and SMN have utility in raise that is situational, but they pay full time for it with lower DPS.

I think a way to remedy this would be to make raise a caster role action or leave it as is, doesn’t matter, but make it apply a “-20% damage dealt for 1 minute” debuff to the caster, call it “aetheric imbalance” or “aetheric overexertion”. Make it a stackable debuff in case that chain raises happen. I believe this would solve the problem, this way RDM and SMN (and BLM if they make it a caster role ability) would pay for their situational utility only if they use it and not full time like they pay for it now. It would also fit lorewise since casters are not healers, they are not accustomed to using aether to raise their comrades.

If there was a damage debuff on using raise then nobody would use it. lol Even if you do technically lose dps by wasting a gcd, it's not quite the same thing.

RDM was gimped not so much in damage but most the new stuff it got is just pretty much nothing that gave it a boost it needed to keep up with other DPS did in those 10 levels

Scortch is nice

But Aoe trait that should have already been a thing not something learned at 78

Manafications terrible damage boost for 110 second CD

Displacement band aid

And reprise

They put more thought into the Aoe at lower levels than all the stuff 72-78

I think they didn't want to mess with the job too much. New additions can ruin a job. See Heavensward Bard. I'm actually very happy Red Mage plays the same as it did in StormBlood. I don't want them to start bloating it with additional timers or gauges like other jobs. Simplicity is one of the best things about Red Mage and it would be easy to screw it up.

A job doesn't need to radically change each expansion. If it's not broke then don't fix it.

[Zyneste]

So the main problem here is that RDM and SMN have utility in raise that is situational, but they pay full time for it with lower DPS.

I think a way to remedy this would be to make raise a caster role action or leave it as is, doesn’t matter, but make it apply a “-20% damage dealt for 1 minute” debuff to the caster, call it “aetheric imbalance” or “aetheric overexertion”. Make it a stackable debuff in case that chain raises happen. I believe this would solve the problem, this way RDM and SMN (and BLM if they make it a caster role ability) would pay for their situational utility only if they use it and not full time like they pay for it now. It would also fit lorewise since casters are not healers, they are not accustomed to using aether to raise their comrades.

We aren't Healers. We shouldn't be able to spam raise. Just put it on the OGCD with a 2min+ timer, preferably with charges. Let healers have the GCD spammable raise.

If a DPS class is going to support in any function, it should not cost them personal DPS. The removal of Mage's Ballad into Refresh was a clear example of improvement.

[Duskane]

I think they didn't want to mess with the job too much. New additions can ruin a job. See Heavensward Bard. I'm actually very happy Red Mage plays the same as it did in StormBlood. I don't want them to start bloating it with additional timers or gauges like other jobs. Simplicity is one of the best things about Red Mage and it would be easy to screw it up.

A job doesn't need to radically change each expansion. If it's not broke then don't fix it.

its hard to believe this when Dragoon,Black mage and Paladin are just perfect with everything they got
QoL to there game play not changing it