RDM and the Utility Tax

[Kolsykol]

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post.

Are you trying to say that the people claiming the tax exists are bad players making it up to explain their low DPS?
Or that groups who allow someone to join them on their RDM in the first place are bad players?
Or that people who attempt to justify allowing the tax to continue to exist are bad players...?

You kind of meandered a bit with the throwing of substance-less shade, I think literally everyone got hit by the splash in there without you ever making a point.



I agree that it helps RDM stand out, which is one of the reasons I'm against simply taking it away and making it a role action on a cooldown.
That and the age-old "Black Mages shouldn't be casting Raise" line.

As I said in the OP, the furthest I would go is either putting it on a charge system so we can still use it multiple times per fight but a free oGCD, so it costs us nothing to cast but still comes at a cost to our potential just to hold... or reducing (key word, not removing) the damage gap we have with BLMs but highlighting the penalty of casting Verraise, so that we are only taxed for using it.

I don't see how you could get that out of what I said.
I think that what I said was pretty clear.

The heal and res utility of RDM isn't useful unless people are either actively being so bad at the game that it basically becomes impossible for the healer to do their job ( or the healer is bad ).
Progression I suppose is an exception to this, but the progression phase only lasts for so long and then what?
You're supposed to switch to another class just to escape from the '' tax '' attached to the utility that you have which is now basically useless?

I don't think that what is basically situational utility should come with a '' tax '' like this.
It's one thing when the utility is always useful ( like big dps increases ), it's another thing when the utility basically boils down to '' did someone mess up? ''.
The utility that comes with a '' tax '' shouldn't depend on people messing up in order to be useful, that basically just makes it gimped when people are playing properly.
The usefulness of utility that comes with a '' tax '' shouldn't depend upon people messing up imo.
Especially not when you're only gimping yourself even more by utilizing it on top of that '' tax '' too ( like GCD's, mana cost etc that could've been used on damage instead ).

I don't think that it makes you a bad player for accepting a RDM into your group or for playing them, people having fun is the most important to me.
But that's a totally separate thing from talking about balance.

[Kolsykol]

If they took away the spammable ress, i'd probably stop playing red mage. It is what makes red mage stand out, it's the one unique thing nobody else can do, and it's a thing that can easily save entire runs. I can't count how many times i saved a run single handed through the resses. This is what i like about red mage. I don't play savage and hardly ever extreme, i'm talking about pugs here for normal raids or alliance raids. Not everyone spends most of their time in static groups like you'd think reading this forum, only a small percentage does.

Yes, red mage lags behind in a good group that has practice with the content and hardly makes any mistakes. But red mage is far ahead in content where people do make a seizable amount of mistakes, like pugs or groups on duty finder tend to do. Not every class has to be the same at everything they do. The different classes should have their different identities and uses. Don't turn red mage into the same as every other DPS class in the game.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that they all need to be the same or that it should be removed.
But why should there even be a '' tax '' on utility that is so situational and dependent on other people messing up?

It makes sense if the utility is always useful like Trick Attack for example, but I don't think that it makes much sense when someone basically needs to die in order for it to count ( or multiple people really, healers can still ress if it's just one person really ).

[Ardox]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that they all need to be the same or that it should be removed.
But why should there even be a '' tax '' on utility that is so situational and dependent on other people messing up?

It makes sense if the utility is always useful like Trick Attack for example, but I don't think that it makes much sense when someone basically needs to die in order for it to count ( or multiple people really, healers can still ress if it's just one person really ).

I think people overlook too much the fact we also have vercure. SMN healing move is a joke, but RDM healing is really potent. Personally, I don't think the tax is on Verraise, I think it's on Vercure

[Kolsykol]

I think people overlook too much the fact we also have vercure. SMN healing move is a joke, but RDM healing is really potent. Personally, I don't think the tax is on Verraise, I think it's on Vercure

Tbh I don't even think that there should be a tax on that either.
I don't think that a dps should be taxed in what their role actually is just because they have a potent heal or a ress, because in the end of the day you shouldn't be healing or ressing to begin with.
I see Vercure more as a solo thing really.

BLM for example should obviously be higher I think, but I don't think that the mindset going into it should be '' we need to tax RDM cuz Verraise and Vercure ''.
Even as a BLM main I don't feel like RDM needs to suffer a tax just because they have very situational utility that I don't have.
I honestly see Embolden as more '' tax worthy '' than Vercure and Verraise, even tho it's only for physical.

[wereotter]

Tbh I don't even think that there should be a tax on that either.
I don't think that a dps should be taxed in what their role actually is just because they have a potent heal or a ress, because in the end of the day you shouldn't be healing or ressing to begin with.
I see Vercure more as a solo thing really.

BLM for example should obviously be higher I think, but I don't think that the mindset going into it should be '' we need to tax RDM cuz Verraise and Vercure ''.
Even as a BLM main I don't feel like RDM needs to suffer a tax just because they have very situational utility that I don't have.
I honestly see Embolden as more '' tax worthy '' than Vercure and Verraise, even tho it's only for physical.

exactly this. Vercure in raid only has two uses: keeping yourself alive if you messed up and took damage you shouldn't have and triggering dual cast during a boss jump phase. Considering second wind and bloodbath exist, should we punish all the melee jobs for having a self heal that can be used off global cooldown?

[Ardox]

Tbh I don't even think that there should be a tax on that either.
I don't think that a dps should be taxed in what their role actually is just because they have a potent heal or a ress, because in the end of the day you shouldn't be healing or ressing to begin with.
I see Vercure more as a solo thing really.

BLM for example should obviously be higher I think, but I don't think that the mindset going into it should be '' we need to tax RDM cuz Verraise and Vercure ''.
Even as a BLM main I don't feel like RDM needs to suffer a tax just because they have very situational utility that I don't have.
I honestly see Embolden as more '' tax worthy '' than Vercure and Verraise, even tho it's only for physical.

No argument against here. I'm just pointing out you can keep the tank alive while the healer accept your raise, or help top a health bar in a panic.. Vercure might not feel like as "important" as verraise, but can be use in a lot more situations

[Machi_Machiavelli]

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[Sequora]

I personally wish they designed casters like they did ranged physical DPS this expansion. MCH = Low utility high damage, BRD = Medium Utility Medium Damage, DNC = High Utility High Damage. BLM already has zero utility highest damage. I think SMN could use a boost to push it a bit higher than it is. RDM could use a slight boost to DPS, but should remain under SMN, as it has more utility. I actually think SMN and RDM are too close in terms of damage.

[wereotter]

I personally wish they designed casters like they did ranged physical DPS this expansion. MCH = Low utility high damage, BRD = Medium Utility Medium Damage, DNC = High Utility High Damage. BLM already has zero utility highest damage. I think SMN could use a boost to push it a bit higher than it is. RDM could use a slight boost to DPS, but should remain under SMN, as it has more utility. I actually think SMN and RDM are too close in terms of damage.

If we look at utility, summoner and red mage are pretty evenly matched.

Battle raise? Check. Both can use it. Red mage can just use it more easily, since summoner tends to use swift cast in its rotation.

Damage buff? Check. Summoner, I think, has the slightly better skill here with devotion as it's a straight 5% damage buff for all damage types for 15 seconds. Devotion has fall off on its potency and only buffs physical. However devotion is a 180 second cooldown while embolden is 120 second, so it's close.

Healing? Check again. Everlasting flight is a 600 potency heal for the entire party that gets applied as part of the summoner rotation. Vercure is a 350 potency cure (700 potency if you also use your dualcast) on a single target, and interrupts your DPS rotation to use.

Summoner utility may be less readily used, but all three components are there the same as red mages, and so the two jobs should be doing approximately the same damage, but at the moment, they do not.

[Sequora]

If we look at utility, summoner and red mage are pretty evenly matched.

Battle raise? Check. Both can use it. Red mage can just use it more easily, since summoner tends to use swift cast in its rotation.

Damage buff? Check. Summoner, I think, has the slightly better skill here with devotion as it's a straight 5% damage buff for all damage types for 15 seconds. Devotion has fall off on its potency and only buffs physical. However devotion is a 180 second cooldown while embolden is 120 second, so it's close.

Healing? Check again. Everlasting flight is a 600 potency heal for the entire party that gets applied as part of the summoner rotation. Vercure is a 350 potency cure (700 potency if you also use your dualcast) on a single target, and interrupts your DPS rotation to use.

Summoner utility may be less readily used, but all three components are there the same as red mages, and so the two jobs should be doing approximately the same damage, but at the moment, they do not.

I wouldn't say that they're evenly matched. Everlasting flight, while the extra healing is nice, is not reliable in any way shape or form. Vercure can be used whenever and on whoever. It also allows RDM to not need swiftcast as much as SMN for raises. I understand that it costs a RDM a lot of DPS to raise even one person, but sometimes it can save a fight. As far as embolden vs devotion, I'm not sure which buff is stronger. RDM also just had the MP cost of its spells adjusted. Lucid dreaming should not be needed nearly as much just to keep them floating.