RDM and the Utility Tax

[Kolsykol]

I am not really fond of utility that can only really be justified whenever people are bad ( not saying that there are absolutely no situations where it's useful otherwise, progression for example. But that only makes it situationally relevant, after that it goes back to just being '' people are bad '' ).
Other utility, even like Mantra for MNK still has uses outside of just '' someone is bad at the game/ fell asleep and died or the healer is afk:ing ''.

I think that people playing RDM justifying the '' tax '' by pointing to the utility like this that the RDM has are really shooting themselves in their own feet.
And if the utility is really necessary and helpful at all outside the 99.9% of the cases ( again, unless it's like progression I guess ) then the problem is with your group. And if your group isn't bad then why even take an RDM?
I don't think that it should be balanced around people making mistakes / playing poorly to such an extreme extent.

People can get all hurt and offended about me calling people bad all that they want, but cmon it's true...
If you have to use your heals or res it's because someone else failed which they're not supposed to do.
Yes it happens, but usually it only happens for a limited time like after a new expansion has launched but as soon as people have figured things out it doesn't happen often and almost all of your utility is useless.

Like when the main reasoning and logic behind taking a class is basically '' our group is kinda trash and people are going to die, so lets take a RDM '' then I think that there's something wrong there.
It's honestly a bit insulting to RDM even, because it sorta ends up being seen as the babysitter for people who don't know what they're doing.

[Naryoril]

If they took away the spammable ress, i'd probably stop playing red mage. It is what makes red mage stand out, it's the one unique thing nobody else can do, and it's a thing that can easily save entire runs. I can't count how many times i saved a run single handed through the resses. This is what i like about red mage. I don't play savage and hardly ever extreme, i'm talking about pugs here for normal raids or alliance raids. Not everyone spends most of their time in static groups like you'd think reading this forum, only a small percentage does.

Yes, red mage lags behind in a good group that has practice with the content and hardly makes any mistakes. But red mage is far ahead in content where people do make a seizable amount of mistakes, like pugs or groups on duty finder tend to do. Not every class has to be the same at everything they do. The different classes should have their different identities and uses. Don't turn red mage into the same as every other DPS class in the game.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post.

Are you trying to say that the people claiming the tax exists are bad players making it up to explain their low DPS?
Or that groups who allow someone to join them on their RDM in the first place are bad players?
Or that people who attempt to justify allowing the tax to continue to exist are bad players...?

You kind of meandered a bit with the throwing of substance-less shade, I think literally everyone got hit by the splash in there without you ever making a point.

If they took away the spammable ress, i'd probably stop playing red mage. It is what makes red mage stand out, it's the one unique thing nobody else can do, and it's a thing that can easily save entire runs. I can't count how many times i saved a run single handed through the resses. This is what i like about red mage.

I agree that it helps RDM stand out, which is one of the reasons I'm against simply taking it away and making it a role action on a cooldown.
That and the age-old "Black Mages shouldn't be casting Raise" line.

As I said in the OP, the furthest I would go is either putting it on a charge system so we can still use it multiple times per fight but a free oGCD, so it costs us nothing to cast but still comes at a cost to our potential just to hold... or reducing (key word, not removing) the damage gap we have with BLMs but highlighting the penalty of casting Verraise, so that we are only taxed for using it.

[Naryoril]

I agree that it helps RDM stand out, which is one of the reasons I'm against simply taking it away and making it a role action on a cooldown.
That and the age-old "Black Mages shouldn't be casting Raise" line.

As I said in the OP, the furthest I would go is either putting it on a charge system so we can still use it multiple times per fight but a free oGCD, so it costs us nothing to cast but still comes at a cost to our potential just to hold... or reducing (key word, not removing) the damage gap we have with BLMs but highlighting the penalty of casting Verraise, so that we are only taxed for using it.

I think whether it's GCD or oGCD hardly matters. Ressing someone is an insane rDPS or raid healing boost, so to speak, no other skill has a similar "potency". Of course, given its nature, it can only be used if someone screwed up. And i don't like the charged version either. Either the maximum number of charges is so low that it's far behind our current capabilitiy (for example with just 2) and thus destroying the identity and the reason i personally play red mage, or it is so high that it would be crazily overpowered (4 and more, maybe even 3) if it came with no mp cost (if it came with one, what would be the point of changing it?).

As an idea on how to solve the issue of keeping the ressing identity and capability, but allowing to close the DPS gap to other classes for good groups where our biggest utility doesn't come into play, how about a stacking debuff every time we raise? For example -25% damage for a minute or something like that, can stack up to 3 times for a 75% penalty, or maybe just add another minute for every ress. This way we get a hefty DPS penalty when we use our utility, but if it isn't needed, we could deal DPS closer to other classes.

[Archwizard]

I think whether it's GCD or oGCD hardly matters.

It matters a great deal, actually. If it's a GCD it means we have to stop attacking to cast the spell, on top of the MP cost. That's a Dualcast or Swiftcast we could have spent on a Verthunder/aero.
If it's off-GCD, it's completely free to use, and we can simply slide it in after any instant spell at no DPS loss whatsoever.

And i don't like the charged version either. Either the maximum number of charges is so low that it's far behind our current capabilitiy (for example with just 2) and thus destroying the identity and the reason i personally play red mage, or it is so high that it would be crazily overpowered (4 and more, maybe even 3)

How often are you rezzing, exactly, that 2 charges you can toss out in a row is too few, but 3 is "maybe even" too much?

Thing is, the fact you can raise a healer and/or tank entirely for free, especially if the former can do the remainder of the rezzing, is a large part of its massive potency. If you actually have to throw out three or more rezzes in a row, and more than two of those are non-DPS, you're likely wiping.

As an idea on how to solve the issue of keeping the ressing identity and capability, but allowing to close the DPS gap to other classes for good groups where our biggest utility doesn't come into play, how about a stacking debuff every time we raise? For example -25% damage for a minute or something like that, can stack up to 3 times for a 75% penalty, or maybe just add another minute for every ress. This way we get a hefty DPS penalty when we use our utility, but if it isn't needed, we could deal DPS closer to other classes.

I like the idea of a stacking debuff, but -25% is far too much. Using it even once would put our DPS lower than healers -- at that point you may as well just have the healers full-cast Raise. Hell, we'd be punished more harshly for using it even once than SMN's tax for only being able to throw one instant Raise out!

Depending on how much the gap between casters is hypothetically reduced, somewhere between 5-10% per stack is plenty to get the point across, I think.

[Machi_Machiavelli]

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[ArchlordPie]

It matters a great deal, actually. If it's a GCD it means we have to stop attacking to cast the spell, on top of the MP cost. That's a Dualcast or Swiftcast we could have spent on a Verthunder/aero.
If it's off-GCD, it's completely free to use, and we can simply slide it in after any instant spell at no DPS loss whatsoever.



How often are you rezzing, exactly, that 2 charges you can toss out in a row is too few, but 3 is "maybe even" too much?

Thing is, the fact you can raise a healer and/or tank entirely for free, especially if the former can do the remainder of the rezzing, is a large part of its massive potency. If you actually have to throw out three or more rezzes in a row, and more than two of those are non-DPS, you're likely wiping.



I like the idea of a stacking debuff, but -25% is far too much. Using it even once would put our DPS lower than healers -- at that point you may as well just have the healers full-cast Raise. Hell, we'd be punished more harshly for using it even once than SMN's tax for only being able to throw one instant Raise out!

Depending on how much the gap between casters is hypothetically reduced, somewhere between 5-10% per stack is plenty to get the point across, I think.

I don't think he realizes that the res sickness debuff is 25% and stacks to 50%.

Why would I want to give myself a res sickness equivalent, even if it means getting another player back in the fight? Even worse, if I have to chain res 3 or 4 people and my debuff stacks to 75%, I've now made myself weaker than the people who died twice. At that point I'd rather just wipe a perfectly salvageable run and reply to the inevitable "wtf res you dumb ****" comments with "die less".

[JoeBot]

One problem with the DPS that come with raise-based utility is that if nobody dies, that utility still gets paid for. Past progression, it obviously ends up with these jobs being left to the wayside.

I'd propose some sort of 'life link' trait or ability for DPS that gain part of their value from resurrection skills. Essentially, so long as no member of the party dies, they should provide a small buff to either personal or raid DPS. Once someone dies, the buff is lost. Fluff it as being able to channel everyone's concentrated aether or something.

That, or think up some other form of raid utility that raise-capable DPS can provide when things aren't strictly going pear shaped.

The main problem I see with this idea is the same problem that comes when working for a construction company. Workers that work on buildings alot of times receive a safety bonus at the end of a job if there are no accidents during the job life cycle. This bonus disappears for EVERYONE on the crew if just one person has to make an injury claim. Alot of times that person is then ostracized by the rest of the crew for costing them their bonus even if the injury was completely unavoidable or was the fault of company policy. The same would happen here. Anyone that died the first time would catch no end of grief for costing the raid their precious damage buff.

[Kabooa]

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say with that response. If you think I've said something ridiculously retarded, please point it out..

Do I really have to explain the absurdity of an illuminati conspiracy against -Red mages-?

[Kolsykol]

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post.

Are you trying to say that the people claiming the tax exists are bad players making it up to explain their low DPS?
Or that groups who allow someone to join them on their RDM in the first place are bad players?
Or that people who attempt to justify allowing the tax to continue to exist are bad players...?

You kind of meandered a bit with the throwing of substance-less shade, I think literally everyone got hit by the splash in there without you ever making a point.



I agree that it helps RDM stand out, which is one of the reasons I'm against simply taking it away and making it a role action on a cooldown.
That and the age-old "Black Mages shouldn't be casting Raise" line.

As I said in the OP, the furthest I would go is either putting it on a charge system so we can still use it multiple times per fight but a free oGCD, so it costs us nothing to cast but still comes at a cost to our potential just to hold... or reducing (key word, not removing) the damage gap we have with BLMs but highlighting the penalty of casting Verraise, so that we are only taxed for using it.

I don't see how you could get that out of what I said.
I think that what I said was pretty clear.

The heal and res utility of RDM isn't useful unless people are either actively being so bad at the game that it basically becomes impossible for the healer to do their job ( or the healer is bad ).
Progression I suppose is an exception to this, but the progression phase only lasts for so long and then what?
You're supposed to switch to another class just to escape from the '' tax '' attached to the utility that you have which is now basically useless?

I don't think that what is basically situational utility should come with a '' tax '' like this.
It's one thing when the utility is always useful ( like big dps increases ), it's another thing when the utility basically boils down to '' did someone mess up? ''.
The utility that comes with a '' tax '' shouldn't depend on people messing up in order to be useful, that basically just makes it gimped when people are playing properly.
The usefulness of utility that comes with a '' tax '' shouldn't depend upon people messing up imo.
Especially not when you're only gimping yourself even more by utilizing it on top of that '' tax '' too ( like GCD's, mana cost etc that could've been used on damage instead ).

I don't think that it makes you a bad player for accepting a RDM into your group or for playing them, people having fun is the most important to me.
But that's a totally separate thing from talking about balance.