Lack of End Game Content

[Forever_Learning]

[B]
Yeah no it isn't, you don't get too just define your own benchmark and definition for what is "much more Theme park" and roll with it. The available rides in WOW are there just like they are for FFXIV, however you choose to measure how "enjoyable" these rides are is besides the point. They are however still there.

-The gear treadmill is broken, not simply because it is more grindy - because the issue isn't the grind but the level of RNG. Preach has a video about it, and and a more recent one discussing how players need to do content like world quests, which is normally considered casual content, in order to get the best gear in the game. Preach would prefer all raid gear largely come from raids, and it doesn't, instead, it comes from different sources which leads raiders to do that content for the gear rewards, even though they dislike video. I point out his videos so people reading this thread understand I"m stating the general opinion of things as opposed to just my own opinion of things.

Like I said, a good example is making people who normally do PvE need to do PvP for great rewards, or vice-versa. Most people do one or the other, not both, and are continuously frustrated needing to do the content for the reward, because they don't normally do it. If you don't want my word on it, go see videos by hazelnutty where she discusses the frustration. People complained so much the developers even had to address in their video blog to the WoW players.

Also, no, FF14 has no where the amount of time-gating like WoW, nor the constant amount of RNG put in to slow you down. In FF14, you can actually calculate when you will be receiving a reward, what the reward will be, and there is some correlation between what you are doing and the reward received. Because there is so much RNG, it actually forces the player do things far more often than they would in FF14. Some would cheer that "more content", but in reality people are just annoyed because it's more a sense of relief when they finally get it than joy. Also, at least the egg timing for gear in FF14 is on a weekly rotation, so in theory you have seven days to get it done. In WoW, because of things like the artificat weapon and the more recent neck, the most efficient was logging in every day for an hour, to do the exact same thing. Considering catch-ups are usually every six months to a year, that's a lot of time to be doing the same boring world quests every day.

BTW, I actually do enjoy doing the same dungeons every day in FF14 because I find them fun as you actually do have to follow mechanics, even if they are easy to do. WoW dungeons, and frankly any content outside Mythic Raiding and Mythic + is so brain dead easy it might as well be chocobo racing because frankly, chocobo racing is more challenging than the standard WoW dungeon or LFR. FF14 has MSQ raid, but at least it's not the entire game!

-I"m also going to reinforce what I said about professions. It's only recently that professions are so useless in WoW. Previously, you could craft good quality gear, for many slots, and if wasn't gear, it was gems, enchants, and potions. Potions still sell, nothing else does, and the gear that can be crafted is started gear. It was a CHANGE made, and it was made IMO (but others agree) to effectively remove a way for players to obtain gear, and instead keep them going for gear highly dependent on RNG that will 'in theory' keep them playing longer.

-Player agency means being able to set out goals and going after them. I can do that in FF14 because of the currency system. In WoW, there is NO currency system. None. PvP used to have vendors, they are gone . . . because they said players could't find them. Valor gear - gone. Again, because doing so would mean you could have control over when you get certain pieces of gear. The vendor for gear that does exist, you can trade in gear you've obtained for a CHANCE to get gear you want. If you want to actually choose the gear from that vendor, the amount of turn in required will take MONTHS.

WoW has developers that have implemented mobile game tactics in place of an MMO. See Preach's videos, or Asmongolds, people who clearly know WoW well and play the game. What I've expressed here, are the same sentiments they express. They actively force you to play a certain way. I said WoW no longer feels like a theme park - Asmongold would say it"s not even an MMO, it's a casino for gear.

[Zabuza]

I classify endgame content as content that you do at max level, And I do wish there were even just a little more. I would love even just one more boss for savage, personally. I do find myself running out of things to do. I have been playing since ARR, and I have exhausted a lot of the old content. All while they were relevant. No I don't want to craft, no I'm not interested in grinding out more mounts than what I have, no I'm not interested in farming titles that do absolutely nothing for me, I have all of the gear I want, I don't want to level jobs that I do not enjoy, I have to be in a certain mood in order to even craft, my house/apartments/in game husband's house are all decorated to my liking, I have all of the relics I care to have...

While I adore it very much, there are things in this game that I do not enjoy doing, and I refuse to be expected to force myself to do things I despise JUST for the sake of having something to do. That sounds like a great way to burn out. I pay my sub. I choose what I deem worthy to do with the sub that I pay for. The same could be said for the "casual" crowd that refuse to do raids, because they don't like the content and find it not worth their time/money. So, its okay for you to ignore content you don't like, but we are expected to force ourselves to do content that we don't enjoy, just because you like said content and hate the content we do enjoy? The hell is up with that?

I love raids above all else. It gives me life, and I adore the challenge it gives me. I like having to use my brain or challenging myself to do better than before. The trials aren't the greatest, but I can at least take my max level character in there and try to maximize my class or challenge myself by solo healing. Why would I want to go do old content, when that is not why i leveled my character and certain jobs. If the only thing to do to keep occupied is old lower level content, what is even the purpose of getting to 80? I want to do level 80 content. I want to do something that actually requires me to put in work and not practically fall asleep. I want to put my max level character to good use.

This game is catered 90% to the "casual" player base. Most of the people I have seen in favor of more "end game" or "raid" content have not been saying to make the game only focused on that part of the player base or make majority of the content raid content. We know we are not the majority and don't even claim to be, but what we are given is not that up to par. Shoot, I would even be happy with just one more raid boss or even a real hard mode dungeon. Just something. My static completes the raid tier and I kinda just feel lost. Only maybe once did we get through the whole tier after a new tier dropped. And we are by no means pro or hardcore.

No I don't want to play another game. FFXIV is the game I enjoy, and the only one that makes me want to come back to it, even when i feel I have nothing to do. I despise WoW and I refuse to go back to that low quality game. XIV is where I have the little community I helped to form, my "online family". XIV has the aesthetic, boss fight design, just everything that I prefer (outside of the lvl 80 scene). It's not even like I no life this game either, since I have a family/home/job to tend to that take priority, so I really don't even see myself as one who just blows through content ASAP (though I've had more free time the last two weeks thanks to illness). It's not like I don't step away from the game. I just wish there was a little more to do at 80. Before people say "the expansion just launched and the first raid tier is going to be released soon. You'll have your content" no, actually. This has been a problem for years. This isn't a new gripe with people. With the game's formula, we know whats coming. We know its not changing anytime soon, so we know its going to be like the other expansions.

It's really disheartening to have those like me get shot down by the "casual" crowd (I cringe with that word but I don't know how else to address this specific group of people) just for asking for a specific group of content we like to be added to a bit. It's almost like they don't want us to be happy. They don't want us to have more content we love, even though most of this game caters to them. We only get a sliver of the entire pie. Comments like "well I have plenty to do" "I never run out of things to do" "if anything there's too much to do" irk me. If that's the case where you have all this stuff to keep you entertained, why is it such a bad thing to share? I honestly think its a bit selfish to hoard it all to yourself when you're just drowning in content. Personally, I don't even care to have 50%, but I think its wrong to not even be willing to give up even a tiny bit so more people can be happy and stay subbed. Its honestly childish. We are paying customers too. While we are not the majority, we still deserve to be happy in the game that we love. We don't want everything to ourselves like you guys do.

Our community has grown a lot, so that means SE is getting even more money from us/this game. They could stand to invest more back into it.

I'm glad someone is on the same page as me. Couldn't have said it better myself, thank you.

[Forever_Learning]

He had to clarify his points a few times because people kept misunderstanding what he was saying. The twitter post was also him clarifying that he wasn't calling for WoW 2.0. He hasn't streamed a video for 3 days because 2 days ago he received a death threat.

He was triggered, just not by criticism.

I hate saying this, but - that's life.

It would be great if people didn't do things like that, but they do, and I hate saying this - they do it rather frequently.

Feel free to go google "I received a death threat" and see how common it's done, to people from all walks of life.

This is the price you pay when you live in the public sphere.

[Nims]

When you treat them like garbage, and talk about them like they're garbage- you're saying it's ok to do so.

As I've brought up, there's many different things to do in this game- and hardcore content already gets a larger slice of the pie relative to the amount of people doing it. It's one thing for you to say even that's not enough, as I've said many times there's nothing wrong with that- but when you start saying that anyone who disagrees that hardcores should have more and more at the expense of others is selfish and disgusting, I don't think your opinion on them is unclear.

But when did I treat them like garbage or talk about them like they're garbage? Oh...I didn't. I said people that don't want others to get things simply because they're selfish are disgusting and I even said that goes for anyone, regardless of playstyle. Why do you just want to be a victim?

You brought up things that the hardcore community doesn't care about. If someone likes hard fights and progressing their character, you shouldn't suggest "go do gold saucer" (an example) as that's not what they're interested in. Hardcores don't have a relative large slice of pie, they have ultimate? Savage? Can Savage even be considered hardcore based off what it used to be? It was toned down so more casuals can get into it.

[gumas]

i kinda agree on lack of end game content. on the other hand that is how it always been, but on the other hand i was hoping they do something about it which apparently not.

one thing that i never understand is why there is very few gear variant? it seems that everytime i reach max level in every expansion i just need to grind for "this" gear set and... thats it, and they make it as progression not as variation. i was hoping for "hey you reach max level, there is a lot of endgame gear out there, go for it", but they went "hey you reach max level? good, here's the current endgame gear, wait for new patch and we will give you more or less same gear but stronger"

with that kind of progression, as casual all i need is just wait. why i need to farm "patch 1" gear when i could just wait and they will roll "patch 2 gear" later on and i just farm that one instead.

the rest is just there for fashion purpose, cant they just make more gear set with different effect or something? or they cant do it because the spaghetti code?

[MonteCristo]

I'm glad someone is on the same page as me. Couldn't have said it better myself, thank you.

Major cosign to what she said....masterfully articulated

[Saidosha]

Endgame is a tricky thing since people are obviously going to vary on what qualifies as such. A lot have seemingly been conditioned into believing that it has to be raids, which I feel is a grave disservice to those who don't like them, can't regularly participate, or just generally may not have the skill/ability to pull it off. It's also no secret that certain elements of the raider community can be particularly abrasive to those who don't conform or perform at the level they desire, while also playing gatekeeper when it comes to the proposition of alternative gearing methods.

Having only recently returned, I originally left the game when content was focused on Coil. Generally speaking, I'm one of those people with an irregular schedule that can't commit to things like regular raid nights, nor be guaranteed uninterrupted play for hours on end due to caring for disabled family. Sure, I got some Darklight gear for my characters at the time, but I inevitably pulled the plug because I felt like the more casual, yet dedicated player wasn't being pandered to in a meaningful way when it comes to the brunt of the game experience: Combat. Things that later came that people bring up either wind up unrelated to personal growth or just purely aesthetic. Not to say they aren't things people enjoy, but there's still this awkward in-between that I've yet to really see an MMO acknowledge and really try to do something about.

The above is something I do worry about once I actually finish the story content, being a little into Stormblood now. I look to the open world as I adventure around and commonly think, "Does this really matter?" because so many of the gear-oriented rewards are tied to instanced content. I've traditionally had issue with the lacking scale and reward of FATEs, having played other MMOs where zone events were more of thing to more broadly engage players and sometimes have consequences to the world relative to performance. I see Stormblood has random FATEs with boosted EXP and the rare Forelorn pop to further boost EXP, but still generally fighting these all by my lonesome, there's still that nagging feeling they could do better. And maybe they do with Shadowbringers, but I'm not there yet, and further worry I'll really miss the new content rush that tends to dictate content pertinence in so many other games. Once I get a combat job to 80, I'll likely then level my crafters, but this then goes back to my concern about gear and how it will likely be yet another case of tome/raid gear being better than crafted options until very late in the expansion cycle, evoking a "What's the point?" ennui to it. And in constantly seeing all the gibberish name bots teleporting around and no doubt having their fingers clawed into the economy, it further sends the signal that SE has largely given up on this as a competitive endgame alternative gearing method.

I've never been big on Housing, and SE's implementation of such has further left me scratching my head at times just keeping tabs on it over the years. Yet it also ties into things like Gardening and Chocobos. If the real point of crafting is to churn out furnishings, then it comes as an incredibly volatile market knowing there are other players like myself who don't really care for it, the earlier RMT problem, others being funneled into it, and what likely sells well being further regulated to the drops of rare components that some may not (be able to) do the content they come from to get the most out of it. I know I could solo the old Ex primals for mounts, but with that being solely RNG-based, I'm sure I'll get frustrated on some of the harder ones.

Now, some may think, "If you don't do raids, why do you need raid quality gear?" First, I may sharply jab, "Why not?" and expect the usual retort about incentive and prestige. I could then posit that some only do raids because they're more or less bribed into it for that reason, and that without those who claim they want truly hard content would see a significantly diminished partner pool because it's rather likely people don't want to be so flustered by the commonalities of the system. Next, I'd point out a relative lack of open world or solo-instance content that people could do in alternative where said gear COULD be useful, if not mandatory. The presence of Trusts or the more primitive Squadrons could also serve as an aid here, but then someone will invoke that whine about how MMOs are about playing with others and that being able to do too much alone just defeats the purpose. Nevermind the fact that the gross majority of story content is done alone until the game forces you into an instance. In the end, I really have no issue with multiplayer elements, but tend to find they're better when optional and not forced. By default, this tends to rule out certain FATEs (The 30m ones) because they're literally structured around at least 1 balanced party taking on the boss, otherwise you're likely unable to survive or be able to do enough damage in time. I think we'll all agree some dungeons aren't fun, and with syncing, gear they provide also loses luster as a reward unless you're chasing cosmetics. But there's also the general nature of repetition and a sterile lack of variance when you eventually learn all of a mob's moves and no outside factors can really change an experience short of a party member being a derp.

So, what do I want? To be somewhat nebulous, I'll just stick to: Things Worth Doing(tm). As long as what I'm doing can make my character stronger without having to submit to long DPS queues, not having runs ruined by the impatient/elitist, can let me come and go as I please without consequence, doesn't have some sort of absurd or time-gated access requirement, and isn't an obvious overtuned grind for the sake of grind, I'd say I'd be good. If friends can tag along, even better. I know it's possible, it's just a matter of a dev team somewhere finally stepping up and realizing you can have a legit endgame that isn't just raids or, in the case of other games, PvP.

[Klb600]

snip

Well I am not going to defend that but nonetheless that does not change my stance on "how much of a theme park" That makes one or another, is Disney land more of a theme park then 6 flags because Some rides are more to your liking or certain rides exist in one and not the other? We can sit here and argue all day about it but then it just becomes semantics.

So there are some things you had to do too enjoy other things? What of it? FFXIV contains it's own form of this, You know what its called? Story Gating. I would like too enjoy the game with new friends but nope, here is this long winded series of quest that you have too play for hours just to enjoy 1 dungeon with your friend until the next series of long winded quest. choice and freedom, right out the window..

Again I never argued "which is more grindy or how enjoyable the grind is too another." But ok in FFXIV's case they give you the illusions of constantly gaining rewards in the form of gear, but tell me this, What is the point when the tight gear treadmill will just make it irrelevant? What is the point when one gear from another is decided entirely by X amount of numbers? Oh I just gained enough of X amount of generic currency for this new piece of gear where the only difference is a higher number. Then oh 2 months later that gear is made irrelevant, a new form of currency is introduced, new gear with +X stats Is here and the treadmill sprint continues. FFXIV is mostly instant gratification at this point.

That’s fine that you find it enjoyable…But I don’t and there are probably others who don’t. Yeah follow what mechanics? Pull wall to wall trash, tank and spank bosses where you follow some scripted dance routine for the hundredth time? The dungeons are enjoyable the first time around but completely lose their charm after the 2nd run. Most of the time I'm zoned out or watching YouTube as I do these dungeons

The market in this game is 99% glamour, and Vanity pieces for your Housing. what you consider goals may not be to others and vice versa. What Agency do I have in FFXIV when the only way I have to gain high level gear Is Savage(4 scripted bosses) or the same 2 trials I have beaten for the thousandth time? Listen I understand You ohh soo love this game, but to tell me I have Agency in this game over another is straight up duplicate. When I want to progress by doing content X and I am told that If I do content X over content Y I gain nothing but a vanity piece then you have robbed me of all agency.

I am not interested in enlightening myself on how "grindy" WoW is and in no way doubt the validity of your claims about how the quality of the game has gotten, but non the less a Theme park MMO is a Theme park MMO however you look at it.

[RareItems]

Maybe if the game had a Server vs Server PVP large scale PVP feature where you can use the gear you have now, and it will be instant queue, like Eureka where you can just go in and out anytime. And you can also gain EXP inside as well as gain tokens. Kinda like Guild Wars 2's World v World feature. I think it would a great addition.

Sure FFXIV's combat is not the most fluid, but if they try hard enough i'm sure they can make something like it lol.

[Kaitoo]

Imagine having such a small mind that demanding more bosses equals to making the game like wow