Reminder that war is still good.

[Rhyn]

Couldn't agree more, I never use Onslaught outside IR...unless I need a closer so I don't miss a GCD due to mechanics. That way it's always available for that as well. Feels great.

Basically you are comparing a 250pot/50 gauge oGCD against a 590pot/50 gauge GCD, meaning your average GCDs (without gauge) need to exceed 340pot for Onslaught to be better. And they don't.

[whiskeybravo]

Couldn't agree more, I never use Onslaught outside IR...unless I need a closer so I don't miss a GCD due to mechanics. That way it's always available for that as well. Feels great.

Basically you are comparing a 250pot/50 gauge oGCD against a 590pot/50 gauge GCD, meaning your average GCDs (without gauge) need to exceed 340pot for Onslaught to be better. And they don't.

That's not entirely correct, as I've learned through various arguments, because GCDs aren't "free". You're always going to be using your GCDs, so the potency for Fell Cleave is relative to the GCD it's replacing. If it replaces Heavy Swing it's +390 potency (7.8 pot/gauge). If it replaces Path or Eye it's only +210 potency for 50 gauge (4.2 pot/gauge) - so there are in fact situations where Onslaught (5.0 pot/gauge) is a gain - especially considering it doesn't consume a GCD.

I can't take credit for any of this, but for example if you use Onslaught once after IR it aligns gauge/gcd better with the trick windows in between IRs. You end up at 100 gauge with Path prepped for 2x IC + 2x FC + 1x Upheaval for those windows.

It's not much, but it's not as cut and dry as simply using Fell Cleave instead. The other uses I've seen are using onslaught to burn gauge so you can fit an extra path instead of overwriting eye early (basically to not overcap). Conversely you can't always spam Fell Cleave because if you do too many it might cause eye to fall off.

Onslaught it lackluster, yes, but it does serve purposes.

========================

What I'd like to see personally is for SE to replace our bullshit level 78 Convalescence trait with an AoE off-GCD attack similar to Circle of Scorn/Flood Of Shadow/Bow Shock which are all basically free padding for those respective tanks.

[Rhyn]

That's not entirely correct, as I've learned through various arguments, because GCDs aren't "free". You're always going to be using your GCDs, so the potency for Fell Cleave is relative to the GCD it's replacing. If it replaces Heavy Swing it's +390 potency (7.8 pot/gauge). If it replaces Path or Eye it's only +210 potency for 50 gauge (4.2 pot/gauge) - so there are in fact situations where Onslaught (5.0 pot/gauge) is a gain - especially considering it doesn't consume a GCD.

It doesn't matter what potency a specific GCD is, because we can't just decide to spam that all day. All our non-gauge GCDs are tied to our combos (+tomahawk), and you can't just pick one of them. You have to compare that 340 to the average of a full "rotation" of our combos (since you have to apply eye every so often, but do path otherwise) + the value of the gauge gain.

However, now that I did the math, assuming Eye + 2x Path rotation, and basing he value of gauge on Onslaught (100pot per 20 gauge), it turns our average combo GCD is as high as 376.67 pot.

So spamming Onslaught on CD is actually a ~37pot per 10sec gain over using FC to dump gauge. That also means that if you will miss more than one GCD per 100sec by not saving Onslaught, you should have dumped with FC instead. No considering raid buff windows.

In a mechanic heavy fight, I think using FC is better.

It also means buffing FC by 40 pot would be a good way to buff WAR Then you can always save Onslaught for movement. Again, not counting raid buff window minmaxing.

[Izsha]

It doesn't matter what potency a specific GCD is, because we can't just decide to spam that all day. All our non-gauge GCDs are tied to our combos (+tomahawk), and you can't just pick one of them. You have to compare that 340 to the average of a full "rotation" of our combos (since you have to apply eye every so often, but do path otherwise) + the value of the gauge gain.

However, now that I did the math, assuming Eye + 2x Path rotation, and basing he value of gauge on Onslaught (100pot per 20 gauge), it turns our average combo GCD is as high as 376.67 pot.

So spamming Onslaught on CD is actually a ~37pot per 10sec gain over using FC to dump gauge. That also means that if you will miss more than one GCD per 100sec by not saving Onslaught, you should have dumped with FC instead. No considering raid buff windows.

In a mechanic heavy fight, I think using FC is better.

It also means buffing FC by 40 pot would be a good way to buff WAR Then you can always save Onslaught for movement. Again, not counting raid buff window minmaxing.

You have to add in the addition gain from infuriate recast. Put one way, every 11 fcs is an inner Chaos (infuriate functionally has a 55 sec cd due to the use of IC itself reducing it by 5 sec.) Spending gauge on onslaught means less fcs means less IC. Fc essentially has 'bonus' potency due to IR recast that got stronger due to IC being tied to it.

Dont have time at the moment, but i can run the numbers again later. I did it after the media tour but havent again with live potency adjustments. But it was significant enough to tip the scales away from onslaught and i suspect it hasnt moved much. Onslaught was something like a 35ish pot loss before. You still wont want to spam on cd but it is small enough to always be advantageous to use to close a gap. Right where a gap closer should be. i can have a more exact # later.

[Rhyn]

You have to add in the addition gain from infuriate recast. Put one way, every 11 fcs is an inner Chaos (infuriate functionally has a 55 sec cd due to the use of IC itself reducing it by 5 sec.) Spending gauge on onslaught means less fcs means less IC. Fc essentially has 'bonus' potency due to IR recast that got stronger due to IC being tied to it.

Dont have time at the moment, but i can run the numbers again later. I did it after the media tour but havent again with live potency adjustments. But it was significant enough to tip the scales away from onslaught and i suspect it hasnt moved much. Onslaught was something like a 35ish pot loss before. You still wont want to spam on cd but it is small enough to always be advantageous to use to close a gap. Right where a gap closer should be. i can have a more exact # later.

You only get Inner Chaos when you infuriate. It only happens once and it provides the gauge necessary for IC. It is essentially completely separate and acts identically in both scenarios. You don't get reduced Infuriate cooldown from FC anymore so I don't see how it effects anything at all. It should be pretty obvious I didn't mean you shout spend the 50 gauge from Infuriate on Onslaught instead of Inner Chaos.

Obviously there are GCDs appropriated to Fell Cleave, just like there are GCDs appropriated towards getting up eye and building gauge. The point is that just using Fell Cleave isn't always +590 potency (of course we aren't accounting for -5 sec infuriate potency here).

Let's say there is a fight and you only get 200 gcds total throughout that encounter. X amount of GCDs would be "natural" Fell Cleaves (or ICs) that have to be used due to gauge generation. Therefore, you can only increase X by replacing an existing GCD.

But hey, I got a tendency to be wrong about a lot of things. The simple fact that you have to jump through 215 hoops of fire just to make a point like this is borderline ridiculous.

See above for infuriate. Otherwise I don't see what you're trying to say here. Yes you have to replace a GCD when you FC, that's why I calculate the difference in pot from a FC and the average pot + gauge generation from your combos. In a hypothetical fight with 100% uptime on the boss, you do more dps by using Onslaught on CD, and using the gauge you can't spend on Onslaught on FCs. Upheaval is first priority of course.

*edit* Ah you're talking about raid buff windows. Yes in that case it matters what you can squeeze in. I don't take that into account.

[whiskeybravo]

You don't get reduced Infuriate cooldown from FC anymore so I don't see how it effects anything at all.

Yes, you get -5 sec for using any of the 4 abilities.

*edit* Ah you're talking about raid buff windows. Yes in that case it matters what you can squeeze in. I don't take that into account.

Well, I was in the prior post. But my main point was that if you are comparing FC vs Onslaught then you're replacing a specific GCD so you have to compare it to whatever that GCD would've been (+ Onslaught & gauge generation) to FC (+ infuriate reduction).

[Nedkel]

You only get Inner Chaos when you infuriate. It only happens once and it provides the gauge necessary for IC. It is essentially completely separate and acts identically in both scenarios. You don't get reduced Infuriate cooldown from FC anymore so I don't see how it effects anything at all. It should be pretty obvious I didn't mean you shout spend the 50 gauge from Infuriate on Onslaught instead of Inner Chaos.

See above for infuriate. Otherwise I don't see what you're trying to say here. Yes you have to replace a GCD when you FC, that's why I calculate the difference in pot from a FC and the average pot + gauge generation from your combos. In a hypothetical fight with 100% uptime on the boss, you do more dps by using Onslaught on CD, and using the gauge you can't spend on Onslaught on FCs. Upheaval is first priority of course.

*edit* Ah you're talking about raid buff windows. Yes in that case it matters what you can squeeze in. I don't take that into account.

All 4 skills reduce infuriate CD by 5 sec.

[MerlinCross]

All 4 skills reduce infuriate CD by 5 sec.

I question what they mean by "Most targets". I would assume hitting an Immune enemy might not lower the recast but I wonder what enemies/targets don't do it.

[whiskeybravo]

It doesn't matter what potency a specific GCD is, because we can't just decide to spam that all day. All our non-gauge GCDs are tied to our combos (+tomahawk), and you can't just pick one of them. You have to compare that 340 to the average of a full "rotation" of our combos (since you have to apply eye every so often, but do path otherwise) + the value of the gauge gain.

However, now that I did the math, assuming Eye + 2x Path rotation, and basing he value of gauge on Onslaught (100pot per 20 gauge), it turns our average combo GCD is as high as 376.67 pot.

So spamming Onslaught on CD is actually a ~37pot per 10sec gain over using FC to dump gauge. That also means that if you will miss more than one GCD per 100sec by not saving Onslaught, you should have dumped with FC instead. No considering raid buff windows.

In a mechanic heavy fight, I think using FC is better.

It also means buffing FC by 40 pot would be a good way to buff WAR Then you can always save Onslaught for movement. Again, not counting raid buff window minmaxing.

Obviously there are GCDs appropriated to Fell Cleave, just like there are GCDs appropriated towards getting up eye and building gauge. The point is that just using Fell Cleave isn't always +590 potency (of course we aren't accounting for -5 sec infuriate potency here).

Let's say there is a fight and you only get 200 gcds total throughout that encounter. X amount of GCDs would be "natural" Fell Cleaves (or ICs) that have to be used due to gauge generation. Therefore, you can only increase X by replacing an existing GCD.

But hey, I got a tendency to be wrong about a lot of things. The simple fact that you have to jump through 215 hoops of fire just to make a point like this is borderline ridiculous.