Reminder that war is still good.

[Nedkel]

The reality yet again confirmed what i was writing about in other thread.
Warrior plays exact the same, and because of it not a lot of ppl plays it.

[Arewn]

Even if that's true, I don't see how that means more players playing a specific tank equate to "best tanks", especially considering a new tank came out with the new expansion.

There was a job satisfaction survey shortly after the xpac launched, Japan side, and that also put warriors as the tank that people are least satisfied with. That doesn't necessarily indicate they are bad balance wise, but clearly people are dissatisfied with warrior's current state.
https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/eorzean/...9728eaf2-s.png
(red is like, pink is somewhat like, yellow is neutral, light blue is somewhat dislike, blue is dislike) New jobs aren't include because it's asking for satisfaction with the changes that were made.

[Izsha]

People used ff logs popularity incorrectly as a measure of balance for drk. Now people are doing the same for war.

Play rate does not mean a job is weak. You look at the actual performance based numbers to determine that (dps, mitigation, etc). Playrate is a reflection of player interest, not balance. Is the job fun? Do people enjoy playing it? Then theres the perception angle. If the playerbase percieves a job is strong or weak can determine if people level and play it. But perception is not reality. This thread is a perfect example of that and is affected by things like youtube personalities saying crap and everyone eating it up and spreading it around. Thats what happened with "zomg war is to rng reliant on crits" spreading like wildfire. Even though if you did the math they were only a couple, single digit percent more variable than literally every other class. (I did the math in a post at the time, but forget the result but it was not even noticable to a human eye). Human perception is full of a lot of baggage and BS.

Paladin was more played than war for the last 2 years. Neother job changed much. It still more played. Thay doesnt say much about war. Drk was shit on by the community for years, even after its performance was fixed and maintained a low playrate long after it was viable (perception). This rework excited people so many picked it up. No surprise it passed up war. Its new and shiny and shook the stigma via rework. Passing up war with an exciting rework doesnt say anything about war status. Speaking of new. Gunbreaker. Of course it has the highest playrate. It IS the hype train. Its a brand new job that appeals to a popular ff tittle. Of COURSE it will have a high play rate. That doesnt mean war sucks. So explain to me again how playrate means war sucks? Its just not as flashy as the reworks or new tanks and between the tanks that didnt change much (war/pld) war had a lower playrate than pld for 2 years. If you dont change much why would we expect war to leapfrog pld if nothing changed? You wouldnt and shouldnt.

Fflogs can offer a lot of insight into jobs. But you cant just glance at the surface level stats and make sweeping statements. You need to get nitty gritty with all the data and then you might be able to tease out some interesting leads as to the why. Stuff like playrate is influenced by TONS of factors. You cant draw big conclusions from that 1 number. You need to look much deeper to drill down to WHY those big numbers are what they are.

[whiskeybravo]

Couldn't agree more, I never use Onslaught outside IR...unless I need a closer so I don't miss a GCD due to mechanics. That way it's always available for that as well. Feels great.

Basically you are comparing a 250pot/50 gauge oGCD against a 590pot/50 gauge GCD, meaning your average GCDs (without gauge) need to exceed 340pot for Onslaught to be better. And they don't.

That's not entirely correct, as I've learned through various arguments, because GCDs aren't "free". You're always going to be using your GCDs, so the potency for Fell Cleave is relative to the GCD it's replacing. If it replaces Heavy Swing it's +390 potency (7.8 pot/gauge). If it replaces Path or Eye it's only +210 potency for 50 gauge (4.2 pot/gauge) - so there are in fact situations where Onslaught (5.0 pot/gauge) is a gain - especially considering it doesn't consume a GCD.

I can't take credit for any of this, but for example if you use Onslaught once after IR it aligns gauge/gcd better with the trick windows in between IRs. You end up at 100 gauge with Path prepped for 2x IC + 2x FC + 1x Upheaval for those windows.

It's not much, but it's not as cut and dry as simply using Fell Cleave instead. The other uses I've seen are using onslaught to burn gauge so you can fit an extra path instead of overwriting eye early (basically to not overcap). Conversely you can't always spam Fell Cleave because if you do too many it might cause eye to fall off.

Onslaught it lackluster, yes, but it does serve purposes.

========================

What I'd like to see personally is for SE to replace our bullshit level 78 Convalescence trait with an AoE off-GCD attack similar to Circle of Scorn/Flood Of Shadow/Bow Shock which are all basically free padding for those respective tanks.

[Rhyn]

That's not entirely correct, as I've learned through various arguments, because GCDs aren't "free". You're always going to be using your GCDs, so the potency for Fell Cleave is relative to the GCD it's replacing. If it replaces Heavy Swing it's +390 potency (7.8 pot/gauge). If it replaces Path or Eye it's only +210 potency for 50 gauge (4.2 pot/gauge) - so there are in fact situations where Onslaught (5.0 pot/gauge) is a gain - especially considering it doesn't consume a GCD.

It doesn't matter what potency a specific GCD is, because we can't just decide to spam that all day. All our non-gauge GCDs are tied to our combos (+tomahawk), and you can't just pick one of them. You have to compare that 340 to the average of a full "rotation" of our combos (since you have to apply eye every so often, but do path otherwise) + the value of the gauge gain.

However, now that I did the math, assuming Eye + 2x Path rotation, and basing he value of gauge on Onslaught (100pot per 20 gauge), it turns our average combo GCD is as high as 376.67 pot.

So spamming Onslaught on CD is actually a ~37pot per 10sec gain over using FC to dump gauge. That also means that if you will miss more than one GCD per 100sec by not saving Onslaught, you should have dumped with FC instead. No considering raid buff windows.

In a mechanic heavy fight, I think using FC is better.

It also means buffing FC by 40 pot would be a good way to buff WAR Then you can always save Onslaught for movement. Again, not counting raid buff window minmaxing.

[Mahoukenshi]

There was a job satisfaction survey shortly after the xpac launched, Japan side, and that also put warriors as the tank that people are least satisfied with. That doesn't necessarily indicate they are bad balance wise, but clearly people are dissatisfied with warrior's current state.
https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/eorzean/...9728eaf2-s.png
(red is like, pink is somewhat like, yellow is neutral, light blue is somewhat dislike, blue is dislike) New jobs aren't include because it's asking for satisfaction with the changes that were made.

The survey is not conducted by JP gamers, but by "western" gamers (海​外 = overseas, abroad), which was probably translated into JP, seeing the the original source is on reddit. Jut mentioning it if the JP point of view should have been important.

[Izsha]

It doesn't matter what potency a specific GCD is, because we can't just decide to spam that all day. All our non-gauge GCDs are tied to our combos (+tomahawk), and you can't just pick one of them. You have to compare that 340 to the average of a full "rotation" of our combos (since you have to apply eye every so often, but do path otherwise) + the value of the gauge gain.

However, now that I did the math, assuming Eye + 2x Path rotation, and basing he value of gauge on Onslaught (100pot per 20 gauge), it turns our average combo GCD is as high as 376.67 pot.

So spamming Onslaught on CD is actually a ~37pot per 10sec gain over using FC to dump gauge. That also means that if you will miss more than one GCD per 100sec by not saving Onslaught, you should have dumped with FC instead. No considering raid buff windows.

In a mechanic heavy fight, I think using FC is better.

It also means buffing FC by 40 pot would be a good way to buff WAR Then you can always save Onslaught for movement. Again, not counting raid buff window minmaxing.

You have to add in the addition gain from infuriate recast. Put one way, every 11 fcs is an inner Chaos (infuriate functionally has a 55 sec cd due to the use of IC itself reducing it by 5 sec.) Spending gauge on onslaught means less fcs means less IC. Fc essentially has 'bonus' potency due to IR recast that got stronger due to IC being tied to it.

Dont have time at the moment, but i can run the numbers again later. I did it after the media tour but havent again with live potency adjustments. But it was significant enough to tip the scales away from onslaught and i suspect it hasnt moved much. Onslaught was something like a 35ish pot loss before. You still wont want to spam on cd but it is small enough to always be advantageous to use to close a gap. Right where a gap closer should be. i can have a more exact # later.

[whiskeybravo]

It doesn't matter what potency a specific GCD is, because we can't just decide to spam that all day. All our non-gauge GCDs are tied to our combos (+tomahawk), and you can't just pick one of them. You have to compare that 340 to the average of a full "rotation" of our combos (since you have to apply eye every so often, but do path otherwise) + the value of the gauge gain.

However, now that I did the math, assuming Eye + 2x Path rotation, and basing he value of gauge on Onslaught (100pot per 20 gauge), it turns our average combo GCD is as high as 376.67 pot.

So spamming Onslaught on CD is actually a ~37pot per 10sec gain over using FC to dump gauge. That also means that if you will miss more than one GCD per 100sec by not saving Onslaught, you should have dumped with FC instead. No considering raid buff windows.

In a mechanic heavy fight, I think using FC is better.

It also means buffing FC by 40 pot would be a good way to buff WAR Then you can always save Onslaught for movement. Again, not counting raid buff window minmaxing.

Obviously there are GCDs appropriated to Fell Cleave, just like there are GCDs appropriated towards getting up eye and building gauge. The point is that just using Fell Cleave isn't always +590 potency (of course we aren't accounting for -5 sec infuriate potency here).

Let's say there is a fight and you only get 200 gcds total throughout that encounter. X amount of GCDs would be "natural" Fell Cleaves (or ICs) that have to be used due to gauge generation. Therefore, you can only increase X by replacing an existing GCD.

But hey, I got a tendency to be wrong about a lot of things. The simple fact that you have to jump through 215 hoops of fire just to make a point like this is borderline ridiculous.

[Rhyn]

You have to add in the addition gain from infuriate recast. Put one way, every 11 fcs is an inner Chaos (infuriate functionally has a 55 sec cd due to the use of IC itself reducing it by 5 sec.) Spending gauge on onslaught means less fcs means less IC. Fc essentially has 'bonus' potency due to IR recast that got stronger due to IC being tied to it.

Dont have time at the moment, but i can run the numbers again later. I did it after the media tour but havent again with live potency adjustments. But it was significant enough to tip the scales away from onslaught and i suspect it hasnt moved much. Onslaught was something like a 35ish pot loss before. You still wont want to spam on cd but it is small enough to always be advantageous to use to close a gap. Right where a gap closer should be. i can have a more exact # later.

You only get Inner Chaos when you infuriate. It only happens once and it provides the gauge necessary for IC. It is essentially completely separate and acts identically in both scenarios. You don't get reduced Infuriate cooldown from FC anymore so I don't see how it effects anything at all. It should be pretty obvious I didn't mean you shout spend the 50 gauge from Infuriate on Onslaught instead of Inner Chaos.

Obviously there are GCDs appropriated to Fell Cleave, just like there are GCDs appropriated towards getting up eye and building gauge. The point is that just using Fell Cleave isn't always +590 potency (of course we aren't accounting for -5 sec infuriate potency here).

Let's say there is a fight and you only get 200 gcds total throughout that encounter. X amount of GCDs would be "natural" Fell Cleaves (or ICs) that have to be used due to gauge generation. Therefore, you can only increase X by replacing an existing GCD.

But hey, I got a tendency to be wrong about a lot of things. The simple fact that you have to jump through 215 hoops of fire just to make a point like this is borderline ridiculous.

See above for infuriate. Otherwise I don't see what you're trying to say here. Yes you have to replace a GCD when you FC, that's why I calculate the difference in pot from a FC and the average pot + gauge generation from your combos. In a hypothetical fight with 100% uptime on the boss, you do more dps by using Onslaught on CD, and using the gauge you can't spend on Onslaught on FCs. Upheaval is first priority of course.

*edit* Ah you're talking about raid buff windows. Yes in that case it matters what you can squeeze in. I don't take that into account.

[whiskeybravo]

You don't get reduced Infuriate cooldown from FC anymore so I don't see how it effects anything at all.

Yes, you get -5 sec for using any of the 4 abilities.

*edit* Ah you're talking about raid buff windows. Yes in that case it matters what you can squeeze in. I don't take that into account.

Well, I was in the prior post. But my main point was that if you are comparing FC vs Onslaught then you're replacing a specific GCD so you have to compare it to whatever that GCD would've been (+ Onslaught & gauge generation) to FC (+ infuriate reduction).