MSQ roulette and AFK

[Krotoan]

TLDR: Don't punish people for finding a way around a bad change. Fix the problem and people won't feel inclined to find a way around the problem.

You're making 7 other people carry you and making the encounter that much longer. You deserve the kick, right at the end too so you waste your time.

[CazzT]

You're making 7 other people carry you and making the encounter that much longer. You deserve the kick, right at the end too so you waste your time.

Good job ignoring literally everything before this. Go back and read what I wrote. I'm not defending the people AFKing. It's actually a little irritating that I even have to explain this since you couldn't even bother to read my post. Even the TLDR clearly is not defending AFK'ers. /facepalm

[Krotoan]

Good job ignoring literally everything before this. Go back and read what I wrote. I'm not defending the people AFKing. It's actually a little irritating that I even have to explain this since you couldn't even bother to read my post. Even the TLDR clearly is not defending AFK'ers. /facepalm

I did read what you wrote:

It's not like people haven't been saying this will happen. Make a bad change, the players will find a way to deal with the bad change.
Instead of punishing people for dealing with a horrible change, reverse the horrible change. This was never a problem when the cutscenes could be skipped.

Blaming the game for something players are doing. People were doing something undesirable before the cutscenes could be skipped: Rushing people through what is a sizeable chunk of the main story. Agreed this isn't optimal, but I will never excuse people doing rude things just because it's what's convenient and the system could be better.

"But teh new plaeyrses!" There's been plenty of suggestions that would favor the new players without hindering or impacting people who have already passed that point of the MSQ.
"No xpeez or rewardses then!" MSQ roulette had XP and rewards before the asinine change. Put them back to that level.

Yes, plenty of suggestions, lots of which involve entirely reworking old content that most players choose never to do again. But right now apparently the easiest solution was to make it not only optional for everyone who has passed that point in the story, but quite worth the time investment with little to no chance of failure.

But we've been round and round this merry-go-round since Jan/Feb of 2018 when they put this change in.


TLDR: Don't punish people for finding a way around a bad change. Fix the problem and people won't feel inclined to find a way around the problem.

I didn't want to start the argument about what was wrong with MSQ again, so I focused on your overall message:

It's SE's fault they did it this way, AFK'ers are just a result of their decision.


While you are not defending the people choosing to AFK you are saying that we should give consideration to the fact the encounter itself has great problems. I do not feel so. People who choose to do the cruddy thing are still choosing the cruddy thing, regardless of HOW cruddy the encounter it is they are making it worse.

[CazzT]

I did read what you wrote:

After I called you out for not doing that.

Blaming the game for something players are doing.

How did you get that I'm blaming the game? I'm pointing to the bad decision to change how it works. It's painfully clear that's what I'm blaming.

People were doing something undesirable before the cutscenes could be skipped: Rushing people through what is a sizeable chunk of the main story. Agreed this isn't optimal, but I will never excuse people doing rude things just because it's what's convenient and the system could be better.

This makes me believe you're lying about having read what I wrote. Because I addressed this, too.

Yes, plenty of suggestions, lots of which involve entirely reworking old content that most players choose never to do again. But right now apparently the easiest solution was to make it not only optional for everyone who has passed that point in the story, but quite worth the time investment with little to no chance of failure.

It was optional after you did it the first time even before the change. And what they did couldn't even be called a bandaid fix because it just led to other issues.

I didn't want to start the argument about what was wrong with MSQ again, so I focused on your overall message:

It's SE's fault they did it this way, AFK'ers are just a result of their decision.

Which is accurate. So why are you twisting what I've said into things I never said? I think you did want to turn this into an argument, else you wouldn't have twisted my words.

While you are not defending the people choosing to AFK you are saying that we should give consideration to the fact the encounter itself has great problems.

Which it does. As evidenced by the fact that people are AFKing instead of participating.

I do not feel so.

I can't even begin to fathom how you can't see the massive, glaring flaw.

People who choose to do the cruddy thing are still choosing the cruddy thing, regardless of HOW cruddy the encounter it is they are making it worse.

The EXP from the roulette is rather substantial. But in order to get that substantial reward, you must subject yourself to a non-interactive experience. Since people are logging in to PLAY THE GAME, but they're being offered a substantial reward that involves NOT playing the game, they are going to go into that content and seek the least frustrating way to proceed through it. This entire set up practically begs for people to AFK. People said this would happen right after this horrible change was made. It's now becoming an issue because more and more people are tired of queuing for a dungeon that they don't do anything in.

I really can't fathom how you can't see this flaw. And I can't figure out why you're trying to twist my words to say something I'm not saying. What I have said is clear. There's no way it could be misunderstood unless it was on purpose.

[Krotoan]

After I called you out for not doing that.

I have no reason to lie about reading your post.

How did you get that I'm blaming the game? I'm pointing to the bad decision to change how it works. It's painfully clear that's what I'm blaming.

This makes me believe you're lying about having read what I wrote. Because I addressed this, too.

You can think I'm lying, or think that someone interpreted what you wrote incorrectly (which is entirely possible). I summed up what I thought of what you posted in my 2nd reply.

It was optional after you did it the first time even before the change. And what they did couldn't even be called a bandaid fix because it just led to other issues.

Just because a fix causes more issues doesn't make it entirely unnecessary. There were other options sure, but considering how little development time went into their fixes: Number adjusting, flag flagging, I'd say their fix was expedient enough for ancient content.

Which is accurate. So why are you twisting what I've said into things I never said? I think you did want to turn this into an argument, else you wouldn't have twisted my words.

I didn't come back with the "/facepalm". I'm fine just discussing things. I'm ready to drop this if you think I'm not worth the time.

Which it does. As evidenced by the fact that people are AFKing instead of participating.

If a law has a loophole that people utilize, those people are still jerks and should be treated as such.

I can't even begin to fathom how you can't see the massive, glaring flaw.

For someone who is calling reading comprehension into question you took this oddly. I said we should not temper punishing AFKs with the knowledge that the system has problems. I understand there are problems, I don't think they excuse the behavior at all.

The EXP from the roulette is rather substantial. But in order to get that substantial reward, you must subject yourself to a non-interactive experience. Since people are logging in to PLAY THE GAME, but they're being offered a substantial reward that involves NOT playing the game, they are going to go into that content and seek the least frustrating way to proceed through it. This entire set up practically begs for people to AFK. People said this would happen right after this horrible change was made. It's now becoming an issue because more and more people are tired of queuing for a dungeon that they don't do anything in.

I really can't fathom how you can't see this flaw. And I can't figure out why you're trying to twist my words to say something I'm not saying. What I have said is clear. There's no way it could be misunderstood unless it was on purpose.

Again, I understand the system has problems. But the players solution shouldn't be to do something reprehensible. It's to NOT do the dungeon. It's optional and as you've said, not enjoyable as part of the game for certain people. Twisting the blame to the devs for someone taking advantage of others isn't a stance I can get behind. People have pointed out that there are similarly rewarding instances that can be run in the same amount of time (barring queue time) that DO require active interaction.

To restate my position: There is no excuse for doing something as inconsiderate as AFK'ing while 7 other people (or less) do the work for you. Even if there is work to be done on the system, it does not excuse parasitic behavior. I also do not consider a rework of the 2 MSQ dungeons in question to be priority.

[CazzT]

Just because a fix causes more issues doesn't make it entirely unnecessary. There were other options sure, but considering how little development time went into their fixes: Number adjusting, flag flagging, I'd say their fix was expedient enough for ancient content.

I never said a fix wasn't necessary. I've always maintained that something needed to be done. But when the "solution" results in more, or worse, problems, that's not a solution. But that's what they went with. We definitely agree there's a problem, that much I can see.

If a law has a loophole that people utilize, those people are still jerks and should be treated as such.

I said we should not temper punishing AFKs with the knowledge that the system has problems. I understand there are problems, I don't think they excuse the behavior at all.

Agreed. I'm not saying the people currently doing this shouldn't be dealt with due to the way things currently work. I think I worded my initial point on this in a way that didn't convey that correctly.

I'll rephrase it to make more sense here:

It's silly to punish people for finding a way to deal with a bad change when you could have implemented a change that was better.

They shouldn't be AFKing. But they wouldn't even consider that an option were it not for being forced to essentially not play the game for 80% or more of the dungeon in the first place. Punishing someone for it is just silly because you (general term) created the problem that led to the other problem.

Again, I understand the system has problems. But the players solution shouldn't be to do something reprehensible. It's to NOT do the dungeon. It's optional and as you've said, not enjoyable as part of the game for certain people.

I would never have considered AFKing in MSQ roulette. Because to me, if the content is not enjoyable, I don't do it. I don't care what the reward is, if it's not something required to progress, I won't do it (with rare exceptions).

Twisting the blame to the devs for someone taking advantage of others isn't a stance I can get behind.

The devs created the problem by implementing a non-solution. I will put the blame where it belongs. In this case, it's on the devs AND those AFKing. The AFKers wouldn't be resorting to cruddy behavior is the devs had implemented a proper solution to begin with. Thus, both are to blame.

To restate my position: There is no excuse for doing something as inconsiderate as AFK'ing while 7 other people (or less) do the work for you. Even if there is work to be done on the system, it does not excuse parasitic behavior. I also do not consider a rework of the 2 MSQ dungeons in question to be priority.

If I'm giving the impression that I condone AFKing, I don't. As for the priority of fixing MSQ roulette, I would love for it to be higher, but I know and accept why it's not. I look forward to seeing the patch notes that say "We fixed MSQ roulette! It doesn't suck anymore!" Maybe one day.... lol

[Krotoan]

It's silly to punish people for finding a way to deal with a bad change when you could have implemented a change that was better.

I can definitely agree the ARR MSQ could have been handled better. Even if it's a symptom of the true problem though, I react strongly when it's implied it's minor or not something to act upon when someone takes advantage of others. I understand now this is not your position but rather your post was about how the MSQ is a root problem.

Personally I think in about a month when everyone has leveled their Mains and their other jobs and alts this will likely cease to be a big thing again as it has been for the months preceding the expansion hype and release. That and when we get the next iteration of the Deep Dungeon. I still ran MSQ during the "quiet" time and it was kind of a rarity for people to AFK. People turned it into the same thing Eureka became: a social event marred by intermittent fights. Both results of poor design I feel. People forced to find something to do in the absence of actual stimulating gameplay.


The devs are at fault for what MSQ is and their decisions have been hasty fixes and have spawned more problems. I still can't stop being angry with people in general for finding the laziest solutions , especially if their excuse is that the content sucks. One is a failure at design, the other is failure at being a decent person and I know where my ire goes. I'm disappointed at the development choices that were made and remain so, I'm actually angry that people kick their feet up and let others carry them while pointing fingers. That may have colored my first reply harshly, in retrospect.

I look forward to seeing the patch notes that say "We fixed MSQ roulette! It doesn't suck anymore!" Maybe one day.... lol

Agreed. One day.. maybe. =]

[Nariel]

You're making 7 other people carry you and making the encounter that much longer. You deserve the kick, right at the end too so you waste your time.

In all honesty, those boss melt in 30-40 sec, I can't see 10 sec more sec make a real difference when the main incencitive for AFKer is the 45min of millions times seens cinematic.

As much it is rude, I can't blame them... FFS its boring to the point of being an attempt of murder.

I can't even wrap my head around on why I make myself enduring this nightmare for jobs I won't play anyway...

[Krotoan]

In all honesty, those boss melt in 30-40 sec, I can't see 10 sec more sec make a real difference when the main incencitive for AFKer is the 45min of millions times seens cinematic.

As much it is rude, I can't blame them... FFS its boring to the point of being an attempt of murder.

I can't even wrap my head around on why I make myself enduring this nightmare for jobs I won't play anyway...

As has been mentioned and batted back and forth, If you gonna queue, do the work. If you're going to kick back and expect everyone else to do the work, expect to be kicked. I'd love to go watch a movie for the last 30 minutes of Nero-Ican'tshuttheheckup and the elevator ride that never ends, but SOMEONE has to actually do the encounters and it's presumptuous, arrogant and inconsiderate to expect it to be everyone ELSE.

[Nariel]

As has been mentioned and batted back and forth, If you gonna queue, do the work. If you're going to kick back and expect everyone else to do the work, expect to be kicked. I'd love to go watch a movie for the last 30 minutes of Nero-Ican'tshuttheheckup and the elevator ride that never ends, but SOMEONE has to actually do the encounters and it's presumptuous, arrogant and inconsiderate to expect it to be everyone ELSE.

Oh I agree, you tag you play, AFK is a legit reason to get kicked. BUt, I don't blame them and won't probably care at all to the point of kicking them to gain 10 sec on the next boss.
, I'm even too bored to even noticed if people are actually AFKing to be even more honest.