MSQ roulette and AFK

[CazzT]

Just because a fix causes more issues doesn't make it entirely unnecessary. There were other options sure, but considering how little development time went into their fixes: Number adjusting, flag flagging, I'd say their fix was expedient enough for ancient content.

I never said a fix wasn't necessary. I've always maintained that something needed to be done. But when the "solution" results in more, or worse, problems, that's not a solution. But that's what they went with. We definitely agree there's a problem, that much I can see.

If a law has a loophole that people utilize, those people are still jerks and should be treated as such.

I said we should not temper punishing AFKs with the knowledge that the system has problems. I understand there are problems, I don't think they excuse the behavior at all.

Agreed. I'm not saying the people currently doing this shouldn't be dealt with due to the way things currently work. I think I worded my initial point on this in a way that didn't convey that correctly.

I'll rephrase it to make more sense here:

It's silly to punish people for finding a way to deal with a bad change when you could have implemented a change that was better.

They shouldn't be AFKing. But they wouldn't even consider that an option were it not for being forced to essentially not play the game for 80% or more of the dungeon in the first place. Punishing someone for it is just silly because you (general term) created the problem that led to the other problem.

Again, I understand the system has problems. But the players solution shouldn't be to do something reprehensible. It's to NOT do the dungeon. It's optional and as you've said, not enjoyable as part of the game for certain people.

I would never have considered AFKing in MSQ roulette. Because to me, if the content is not enjoyable, I don't do it. I don't care what the reward is, if it's not something required to progress, I won't do it (with rare exceptions).

Twisting the blame to the devs for someone taking advantage of others isn't a stance I can get behind.

The devs created the problem by implementing a non-solution. I will put the blame where it belongs. In this case, it's on the devs AND those AFKing. The AFKers wouldn't be resorting to cruddy behavior is the devs had implemented a proper solution to begin with. Thus, both are to blame.

To restate my position: There is no excuse for doing something as inconsiderate as AFK'ing while 7 other people (or less) do the work for you. Even if there is work to be done on the system, it does not excuse parasitic behavior. I also do not consider a rework of the 2 MSQ dungeons in question to be priority.

If I'm giving the impression that I condone AFKing, I don't. As for the priority of fixing MSQ roulette, I would love for it to be higher, but I know and accept why it's not. I look forward to seeing the patch notes that say "We fixed MSQ roulette! It doesn't suck anymore!" Maybe one day.... lol

[Kaethra]

They could also fix the dungeons instead of encourage people to be there only for the overinflated rewards.

Braindead content + massive reward = people afk. It's a simple equation, and putting in more and more stopgaps isn't going to fix the underlying problem of the content being garbage on repeat.

Pretty much this.

I have a very good idea on how to fix this. First thing is, the dungeon is not a challenge. It used to be. But it is no longer. So item synching to item lvl 55 is the first step. When we first did the MSQ we were in the first set of artifact gear from 45 and 50 job quests. 55 avg item level will be a little higher than the 50-52 we had back in those days as well. Next step would be to add measures to prevent skipping. In Praetorium for example, the first mobs are skipped as everyone rushes to the teleporter. Leaving newbies behind to be killed by a half a dozen enemy. Bad first time experience for them. So make those areas that are skippable like that require keys and such.

So now we have two instances that will be a challenge and will be a decent experience much like every other dungeon.

Unfortunately we still have the issue of length caused by cutscenes. There's no easy way around this. But I may have an idea. Allow for a vote skip on the cutscene. But I would change how bonuses work in regards to exp and tomestones. Roulette would see reduced bonuses, no more getting a third or more of a level from the roulette itself. It would simply give what 50/60/70 gives (but nothing beyond poetics). But if you elect to not skip cutscenes, then you get the same bonus you get now (including newer tomestomes if 80), plus the bonus already stated (a net gain overall). Tie the bonus directly to the cutscenes themselves.

This all should help reduce AFKs since they will be forced to be more engaged to ensure the completion of the objective. And it would help vets get more rewards by helping newbies get through their story while having a fun time doing so.

[Nixxe]

Pretty much this.

I have a very good idea on how to fix this. First thing is, the dungeon is not a challenge. It used to be. But it is no longer. So item synching to item lvl 55 is the first step. When we first did the MSQ we were in the first set of artifact gear from 45 and 50 job quests. 55 avg item level will be a little higher than the 50-52 we had back in those days as well. Next step would be to add measures to prevent skipping. In Praetorium for example, the first mobs are skipped as everyone rushes to the teleporter. Leaving newbies behind to be killed by a half a dozen enemy. Bad first time experience for them. So make those areas that are skippable like that require keys and such.

So now we have two instances that will be a challenge and will be a decent experience much like every other dungeon.

Unfortunately we still have the issue of length caused by cutscenes. There's no easy way around this. But I may have an idea. Allow for a vote skip on the cutscene. But I would change how bonuses work in regards to exp and tomestones. Roulette would see reduced bonuses, no more getting a third or more of a level from the roulette itself. It would simply give what 50/60/70 gives (but nothing beyond poetics). But if you elect to not skip cutscenes, then you get the same bonus you get now (including newer tomestomes if 80), plus the bonus already stated (a net gain overall). Tie the bonus directly to the cutscenes themselves.

This all should help reduce AFKs since they will be forced to be more engaged to ensure the completion of the objective. And it would help vets get more rewards by helping newbies get through their story while having a fun time doing so.

Your solution to the MSQ is to make it even more tedious and less rewarding? Did you really not learn anything from making the cutscenes unskippable?

[Krotoan]

It's silly to punish people for finding a way to deal with a bad change when you could have implemented a change that was better.

I can definitely agree the ARR MSQ could have been handled better. Even if it's a symptom of the true problem though, I react strongly when it's implied it's minor or not something to act upon when someone takes advantage of others. I understand now this is not your position but rather your post was about how the MSQ is a root problem.

Personally I think in about a month when everyone has leveled their Mains and their other jobs and alts this will likely cease to be a big thing again as it has been for the months preceding the expansion hype and release. That and when we get the next iteration of the Deep Dungeon. I still ran MSQ during the "quiet" time and it was kind of a rarity for people to AFK. People turned it into the same thing Eureka became: a social event marred by intermittent fights. Both results of poor design I feel. People forced to find something to do in the absence of actual stimulating gameplay.


The devs are at fault for what MSQ is and their decisions have been hasty fixes and have spawned more problems. I still can't stop being angry with people in general for finding the laziest solutions , especially if their excuse is that the content sucks. One is a failure at design, the other is failure at being a decent person and I know where my ire goes. I'm disappointed at the development choices that were made and remain so, I'm actually angry that people kick their feet up and let others carry them while pointing fingers. That may have colored my first reply harshly, in retrospect.

I look forward to seeing the patch notes that say "We fixed MSQ roulette! It doesn't suck anymore!" Maybe one day.... lol

Agreed. One day.. maybe. =]

[Adventica6]

Boring content, don't act surprised... some of the worst content the game has to offer.

[Kaethra]

Your solution to the MSQ is to make it even more tedious and less rewarding? Did you really not learn anything from making the cutscenes unskippable?

But if you elect to not skip cutscenes, then you get the same bonus you get now (including newer tomestomes if 80), plus the bonus already stated (a net gain overall)

Read it again. 2 + 3 < 2 + 3 + 1

Its simple math.

[Nixxe]

Read it again. 2 + 3 < 2 + 3 + 1

Its simple math.

Do you think an 8 hour dungeon that awards 50 million XP at level 79 is also a good use of time? It's not. What matters isn't the raw XP, but the XP per time spent, and your suggestion will drastically reduce it.

[Kaethra]

Do you think an 8 hour dungeon that awards 50 million XP at level 79 is also a good use of time? It's not. What matters isn't the raw XP, but the XP per time spent, and your suggestion will drastically reduce it.

Burden of proof is on you to break that down to see how that is the case. Because I'm maintaining is a net increase. I know the current exp/min of the MSQ. But lets see if you do.

[Nixxe]

Burden of proof is on you to break that down to see how that is the case. Because I'm maintaining is a net increase. I know the current exp/min of the MSQ. But lets see if you do.

I don't care enough to do so. Your suggestion is obviously poorly thought out, which was made abundantly clear by the fact that you actually thought the raw XP was what mattered. You'll gain more out of working through why it's a bad idea for yourself than having me do the legwork for you.

[Kaethra]

I don't care enough to do so. Your suggestion is obviously poorly thought out, which was made abundantly clear by the fact that you actually thought the raw XP was what mattered. You'll gain more out of working through why it's a bad idea for yourself than having me do the legwork for you.

I already did so, and its a large increase in exp and tomestones. You didn't bother so you didn't see. I mean I literally put the math in there already. But I'll to simplify it further. You get two roulette for the price of one if you don't skip a cutscene. But again you didn't read the suggestion, otherwise you would have seen that part too.

This is what you are saying:

"I don't want to spend an extra few minutes in MSQ for an extra dungeon's worth of reward."

Spend the time you spent before for extra reward, that's what you don't want lol. But you do you.