If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[HyoMinPark]

Nerfs aint the answer thats a fact.

Miste didn't say anything about nerfs being the answer. She was contesting your assertion that WHM didn't demand for AST or SCH to be nerfed while they were on the bench. There were plenty of WHMs on this very forum demanding that the other two suffer. One of which made several threads in the Healer Roles subforum during the months leading up to the media tour and a couple afterward.

I'm curious what part of OP's post made you think they were idling in combat.

Because that tends to be the playstyle of people who make threads with this theme.

I guess this thread is pretty silly. As a healer, I simply won't DPS. Mostly because of how aggressive other jobs are about it.

Case in point.

Honestly, you’re being petty at this point and a hinderance to your party. Way to rise above, I guess.

Also,something I've never quite understood:

Why do classes have to be balanced at the min-max level in a mostly PVE game?

For example, as a WHM, I don't care if a AST/SCH can put out more DPS/rDPS if they require more skill to play.

Because high-end content is where balance will always be the most important. Balancing should never be around dungeons (though WHM is crushing AST there at the moment as well).

If you have WHM dealing 7,000 in personal damage (not even including what they bring to the table healing-wise—Temperance is REALLY good), they will always be the better choice over a Diurnal AST that can only deal 4,000 personal damage and bring maybe 1,000 in raid damage (and who does not have the sustain that WHM has in terms of healing or MP). AST would have a collective 5,000 in rDPS—meaning your party would lose ~2,000 just from bringing them. Which means you are purposely gimping your party by playing a job that is inherently weaker when you could bring a WHM and be more useful.

If AST could bring about 2,500~3,000 in rDPS, that would give them a collective 6,500~7,000 rDPS, bringing them in line with WHM. At that point, it would come to two things: playstyle preference and whether or not people are doing padded runs. Speedkills could possibly go either way, since the most important factor there is kill time, not padding players (or even necessarily buffs—BLM/SMN were in the Alphascape speedkill meta despite MCH being in the log meta); and both will be dealing relatively the same amount of damage to push for that fast kill.

That said, the Website That Shall Not Be Named is being updated to display rDPS and filter out padding (I’m pretty sure that this is in part due to the addition of DNC). Which is honestly how it should have been since Balance was introduced.


With regards to skill when it comes to play, more complex should not mean that damage is automatically lower. Just because WHM has a simple rotation and AST a “complex” card mechanic (it’s really not that complex, especially now) doesn’t mean AST has to deal less damage than WHM. RDM has frequently been cited as one of the easiest jobs to play—it dealt moderate amounts of damage back in Stormblood. Conversely, playing SMN could be relatively complex in terms of rotation, but they were dealing some of the highest damage in Stormblood.

[TwistedTea]

Because high-end content is where balance will always be the most important. Balancing should never be around dungeons (though WHM is crushing AST there at the moment as well).

If you have WHM dealing 7,000 in personal damage (not even including what they bring to the table healing-wise—Temperance is REALLY good), they will always be the better choice over a Diurnal AST that can only deal 4,000 personal damage and bring maybe 1,000 in raid damage (and who does not have the sustain that WHM has in terms of healing or MP). AST would have a collective 5,000 in rDPS—meaning your party would lose ~2,000 just from bringing them. Which means you are purposely gimping your party by playing a job that is inherently weaker when you could bring a WHM and be more useful.

If AST could bring about 2,500~3,000 in rDPS, that would give them a collective 6,500~7,000 rDPS, bringing them in line with WHM. At that point, it would come to two things: playstyle preference and whether or not people are doing padded runs. Speedkills could possibly go either way, since the most important factor there is kill time, not padding players (or even necessarily buffs—BLM/SMN were in the Alphascape speedkill meta despite MCH being in the log meta); and both will be dealing relatively the same amount of damage to push for that fast kill.

That said, the Website That Shall Not Be Named is being updated to display rDPS and filter out padding (I’m pretty sure that this is in part due to the addition of DNC). Which is honestly how it should have been since Balance was introduced.


With regards to skill when it comes to play, more complex should not mean that damage is automatically lower. Just because WHM has a simple rotation and AST a “complex” card mechanic (it’s really not that complex, especially now) doesn’t mean AST has to deal less damage than WHM. RDM has frequently been cited as one of the easiest jobs to play—it dealt moderate amounts of damage back in Stormblood. Conversely, playing SMN could be relatively complex in terms of rotation, but they were dealing some of the highest damage in Stormblood.

To clarify, my perspective is that if a job requires more skill to play,eg. AST/SCH should do more DPS/rDPS assuming they are being played properly.

It's ok, if the harder to play jobs, are rewarded with more DPS/rDPS etc for proper play.

If people are not happy that WHM is not doing enough DPS/rDPS as a healer, they should improve their skills and play AST/SCH instead.

Note, I'm not saying WHM should be significantly weaker than AST/SCH but as a WHM, I wouldn't be too fussed if an AST/SCH is putting out ~500-1000 DPS/rDPS more.

This 'balancing' of healers from my perspective is misguided and has led us to 5.0 AST/SCH.

[HyoMinPark]

To clarify, my perspective is that if a job requires more skill to play,eg. AST/SCH should do more DPS/rDPS assuming they are being played properly.

It's ok, if the harder to play jobs, are rewarded with more DPS/rDPS etc for proper play.

If people are not happy that WHM is not doing enough DPS/rDPS as a healer, they should improve their skills and play AST/SCH instead.

Note, I'm not saying WHM should be significantly weaker than AST/SCH but as a WHM, I wouldn't be too fussed if an AST/SCH is putting out ~500-1000 DPS/rDPS more.

This 'balancing' of healers from my perspective is misguided and has led us to 5.0 AST/SCH.

I'd rather them all be relatively balanced. That will be the only way for one to not be left in the dust - which has been the main issue since Creator (mainly between AST and WHM, as they compete with one another more than AST and SCH because of how inefficient Nocturnal sect is compared to SCH's kit). Back then it was a combination of +10% AOE Balance (lol) and AST MP economy versus WHM's no raid buffs and terrible MP management. In early SB, WHM actually pulled ahead until the Malefic recast change in 4.3, when AST started to pull ahead after not clipping every other GCD for card things (their personal damage shot up, which was the advantage WHM had over them). After the change to allow CU to instantly apply rather than wait for a server tick in 4.4 - and with the overall design of some Alphascape fights requiring a lot of movement - AST pulled ahead again.

If WHM is putting out 7,000 pDPS, then AST/SCH need to have enough rDPS to compensate if their pDPS is scaled lower (which I honestly don't mind, but that's not currently the case with AST and WHM - WHM slaughters AST on both healing and damage fronts). So they can have lower personal damage, but their utility has to make up the discrepancy and essentially balance the jobs within the role. That way, taking a WHM over an AST won't be like Alphascape, where you were actually hurting your raid group by not bringing an AST (because WHM's personal damage did not exceed AST's pDPS + rDPS, and AST's QoL buffs to Malefic and CU made them better overall; especially in movement-heavy fights like Final Omega).

If AST/SCH put out 500~1,000 more rDPS than WHM, they will always be the better option numerically speaking.

[TwistedTea]

If AST/SCH put out 500~1,000 more rDPS than WHM, they will always be the better option numerically speaking.

I guess this is where my perspective differs.

As long as WHM can clear all content, to me, it doesn't matter if it's behind AST/SCH.

I think that jobs which are more complex to play, should be 'rewarded' with more DPS/rDPS when played properly.

If that means WHM is benched due to the meta, that's fine with me.

In addition, would prefer if SE went the other direction with 'balancing'; have some jobs which are more complex and 'reward' the player accordingly when played well.

Also, just because a 'complex' job might have more DPS/rDPS does not mean everyone can play that job well (e.g.: BLM/SMN).

In such cases, it's better to take a non-meta job which does lower DPS/rDPS but the player is better at playing that job.