If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[Lucky27]

Next time I go in a dungeon, I\\'ll pull wall to walk and proceed to not deal any damage. My job is to tank after all isn\\'t it? Not deal damage, that\\'s not my job.

If something gets aggro on something else, I will take it back and proceed to sit there.

It\\'s the DPS job to deal damage, not mine. I\\'m just here to make sure things are aggro on me.

See how ridiculous this sounds?

Wait is this really a problem on here? Your quote doesnt sound crazy at all.What does sound crazy is expecting someone who signed up to heal others, someone who probably isnt that excited about damaging others, to heal! I always put out max dps in duty finder as heals but ive been playing healer since the beginning of time. Some ppl want a more relaxed healing playstyle and this is unfair to force a healer, let me repeat, someone who HEALS, to do damage. When I tank, i would never tell my healer they have to do damage. This community is good for the most part, but it's very wrong on this subject.

"Hey doc, us soldiers are all good now. Here's a rifle, catch! Omg shoot man

[SaberMaxwell]

Wait is this really a problem on here? Your quote doesnt sound crazy at all.What does sound crazy is expecting someone who signed up to heal others, someone who probably isnt that excited about damaging others, to heal! I always put out max dps in duty finder as heals but ive been playing healer since the beginning of time. Some ppl want a more relaxed healing playstyle and this is unfair to force a healer, let me repeat, someone who HEALS, to do damage. When I tank, i would never tell my healer they have to do damage. This community is good for the most part, but it's very wrong on this subject.

"Hey doc, us soldiers are all good now. Here's a rifle, catch! Omg shoot man

Are you implying corpsmen aren't trained to fight should the situation arise where they need to?

[Stamps]

Wait is this really a problem on here? Your quote doesnt sound crazy at all.What does sound crazy is expecting someone who signed up to heal others, someone who probably isnt that excited about damaging others, to heal! I always put out max dps in duty finder as heals but ive been playing healer since the beginning of time

It's not so much a problem as it is an annoyance. Part of the reason why I heal is because I got annoyed by low DPS healers and took the reins for myself, speeding my clear times by quite a bit! But it's always important to understand that most proponents of healer DPS are discussing "what should be" rather than "what is".

When someone comes on and says "I don't like to DPS as a healer so I won't" should be viewed in the same lens as a DPS saying "I don't like the optimal rotation so I won't do it". Neither are "wrong" for saying that, but both mindsets slow down the pace of completion for everyone involved. And pace of completion is a key-metric in a casual game like FFXIV -- everyone wants quick, easy roulettes, right? It's not as if there's any concern of actually failing them. So speed matters and healer DPS is a key component of speeding up the run!

But it certainly doesn't help that SE is muddling the waters by claiming that they design encounters with healers only healing in mind. In my successful clears of Ex trials in Shb (~30 or so) I spent around 80% of my time DPSing. The hardest content should, presumably, have the most amount of healing required -- and that holds up here -- so it's pretty clear that SE doesn't design encounters with high healing uptime in mind.

[Sylve]

If only people would pay attention to the conjurer quest line and take it to heart.

No spoilers, but its not the only questline that SE writes Healers doing damage into fights.

The argument will never change, however. There is a fundamental misunderstanding on both sides of the fence that prevents it reaching a conclusion.

People wildly misrepresent how much Healing is required in party play.
From a purely "numbers per second" standpoint, Healers are working harder than DDs and Tanks. Combine the DPS and HPS into a single "Numbers per second" figure. You'll find even the Healers doing bare minimum damage casts are still providing more numbers per second than the average DPS will. Those that don't do damage casts are only providing the same average 'numbers per second' as an average dps.

Also, from experience leveling both my AST and SCH (Both 80 now), whenever I land in a Trial, the co-healer will ALWAYS dump the lions share of Healing on me and just go balls to the wall dps outside of occasionally using an AoE or oGCD heal.
I would actually prefer it if Squeenix removed the second Healer from Full Parties. Though wouldn't change much of the healing requirements compared to now with the kind of co-healers I end up with.

[Taikugemu]

Wait is this really a problem on here? Your quote doesnt sound crazy at all.What does sound crazy is expecting someone who signed up to heal others, someone who probably isnt that excited about damaging others, to heal! I always put out max dps in duty finder as heals but ive been playing healer since the beginning of time. Some ppl want a more relaxed healing playstyle and this is unfair to force a healer, let me repeat, someone who HEALS, to do damage. When I tank, i would never tell my healer they have to do damage. This community is good for the most part, but it's very wrong on this subject.

"Hey doc, us soldiers are all good now. Here's a rifle, catch! Omg shoot man

Oh no, you're expected to press some buttons instead of doing absolutely nothing in healing downtime, how unfair this world is.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...
but, about what are you EXPECTING other players to do in a party,
...

Expectation: Every role attempts to use a beneficial skill every time the global cooldown comes up.

That is only fair.

...
Discussions on the healer forums don't help to change this expectation.
...

I believe this was originally posted to general discussion, it was moved to the healer subforum at some point.

[IttyBitty]

But it certainly doesn't help that SE is muddling the waters by claiming that they design encounters with healers only healing in mind.

This is actually not what is said. What *was* said is that healer damage is not included when they calculate DPS requirements to clear a fight.

Which...makes sense. Because a healer's GCD priority can change from second to second. Someone stands in stupid and needs a heal. Someone dies and needs a raise. Healer had to move too much (due to bad positioning either on the part of the healer, another party member, or both) and now has to hold their GCD for a second to time a heal properly for a double raidwide or something. Lots of things can affect a healer's ability to contribute DPS that are completely outside of the healer's control. Sometimes you have no choice but to chain heal (eg the entire raid has gained multiple stacks of vuln up).

Yoshida personally believes that healers shouldn't be expected to DPS, but....his beliefs and the content and systems he delivers to players do not match up at all. If he doesn't want us DPSing, he has the power to make that happen. He has not. So it will be expected. Because people care about party contribution, and 3 people putting in effort ~90% of the time and one person putting in effort ~10% of the time is not an even distribution of effort.

"Hey doc, us soldiers are all good now. Here's a rifle, catch! Omg shoot man

Healers in this game are not non-combatants. We're not combat medics. We're not chirurgeons. We are spellcasters who support our allies by keeping them standing.

[Kyeria]

As I said, if you get kicked, that means multiple people agreed you are doing something wrong.

First and foremost let me say that as a healer, I agree that we should DPS when times permit to assist in faster dungeon progression. That being said though, your justification and mentality are 100% wrong on this specific issue.

It doesn't matter if everyone in your group agreed with your reasoning to kick a member from your team. It doesn't mean that the kicked player was "Doing something wrong" and it also doesn't make it "OK" or within the TOS guidelines. Square-Enix has come out and said that "Different Playstyles" are NO LONGER protected by the TOS and can result in punishment when abused in this fashion.

Mob mentality does not equate "just cause". Within this line of thinking, the same example could be, it would be ok for everyone in your party to swear and use racial/derogatory slurs at someone's expense, as long as the majority was in agreement. "Well everyone else agreed, so you're clearly wrong." is pathetic logic and reasoning.

I'm all for compromising and working together, but you're simply a toxic player and it shows in your replies. I hope you get some type of repercussions for this.

[Joven]

Found this while looking for FFXIV memes and thought it was appropriately funny (edited for language):

[Yuyuka3]

"Hey doc, us soldiers are all good now. Here's a rifle, catch! Omg shoot man

Except that's pretty much how it is?
Field docs are trained to protect themselves and their patients, since, you know, many people crap on you being injured, they'll just shoot you while you are down, one more easy kill that will most definitely be unable to return to battle (not every injury that needs treatment will incapacitate you for the rest of the war after all); so there needs someone there who can protect the injured until help arrives, and if there's a medic... They also won't stop at shooting, or at least capturing, the medic, since they are pretty vital to the enemy. Thinking that they are untrained in combat is simply ridiculous, they would be a liability instead of an asset on the battlefield. Theory is well and good, but it stays theory contrary to reality at the end of the day.

So, yeah, in that light, it's quite reasonable to think that the closest thing we have to a field medic in this game, a healer, should be able to handle themselves in battle as well, no? And, lo and behold, they do.

Btw, NPC healers, both enemies and allies, ALSO attack (see trust system). So why should you be different, eh?