The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Sanctify]

As a tank main, I encourage ppl to help the tank pull if they're going unreasonably slow. They need to be made aware of what's expected from them and pull accordingly (aka wall to wall). And if they're uncomfortable playing their role effectively (and valuing the time of their own and party members time), then perhaps they should roll a DPS. There's really nothing more aggravating than a tank that pulls one pack at a time. Personally, I think its disrespectful.

[Hash_Browns]

So you kick the tank and then realize no new tank will be coming any time soon. But that's okay. You're a healer. You can just leave and re-queue.

And also leave the poor two DPSes that will need to wait in queue for another 20+minutes because you had a beef with a slow tank.

There's a name for people like you. But I don't feel like getting reported for saying it. I'm just going to stop talking to you.

If the tank gets kicked, me & the dps continue the dungeon until we get a new one

[Nedkel]

I do not know how to capture video content, but a dps or healer can tank a dungeon I am sure many healers have found themselves in situations were the tank is simply afk deadweight and they had aggro for the entire run. Sure it requires extra healing but it is not impossible.

Also sorry given the thread was about dungeons I figured it was implied that is the content we would be referring to. I do not think I ever said it would be quicker just that a tank doing single pulls is a gimped dps, and one could argue that it would be quicker to just bring a 3rd dps.

Your team would have to do three times as more damage than tank+healer+2dps team, why?
Because the second team could pull three trash groups at time, while 3 dps 1 healer will struggle to go through the first group, healer will have to burn all the mana each pull and it will just not work unless you out lvl the duty horribly by 100 ilvl or so.

[Hash_Browns]

Your team would have to do three times as more damage than tank+healer+2dps team, why?
Because the second team could pull three trash groups at time, while 3 dps 1 healer will struggle to go through the first group, healer will have to burn all the mana each pull and it will just not work unless you out lvl the duty horribly by 100 ilvl or so.

The part in bold said "single pulls" so saying they could pull "three trash groups" doesn't really apply.

[Awha]

Your team would have to do three times as more damage than tank+healer+2dps team, why?
Because the second team could pull three trash groups at time, while 3 dps 1 healer will struggle to go through the first group, healer will have to burn all the mana each pull and it will just not work unless you out lvl the duty horribly by 100 ilvl or so.

I was mainly talking about a tank doing single pulls, would a normal group of three dps and one healer really be that much slower then a single pull tank and 2 dps 1 healer? Granted I rarely ever queue alone so my experience is rather skewed from the norm.

[SoulEchelon]

If the tank gets kicked, me & the dps continue the dungeon until we get a new one

And if you don't get a new one by the time you get to a boss? Not only that, you just added yet more time to the dungeon, as you're now forced to do even smaller pulls and have even less dps going into each battle.

Kicking anyone just for not being up to your standards in speed, tank or not, is detrimental. Now if they're being blatantly bad and refusing to do mechanics, that I can agree with. But kicking shouldn't be a kneejerk thing. It should be the final resort. I never kick unless someone is being specifically interruptive, are afking, or have d/ced for a little too long.

[MrKusakabe]

I will replace the nutshell of this topic with a different, yet similar situation that happened last time:

My White Mage in Sohm Al is struggling and I supported him as Red Mage. So once in a while I casted Vercure to get our health above the 30% mark - this was the average health during the dungeon whenever I looked at the party member's health bars. The healer, a Lalafell, was clearly not able for some reason to keep us in good shape, neither was the tank as I also pulled aggro several times by going into melee. So I just stopped attacking, backed off and attacked the only enemy that was not orange in the emnity list and assisted the dedicated healer with these Vercures. But I never even remotely thought of any ways of "punishing" these players by acting irritating myself when it's clear they are struggling.

Is there an unwritten rule that says "Let my mates die despite I have the tools on my fingertips to prevent that?"

Sorry, but if you are a tank and you go like "You tank it, you die" then you should stop playing in groups in general.
What kind of attitude is that? Not playing your role is griefing (at least to GM Karrsul!), so you are also pretty much in trouble if you refuse to heal as healer or to take aggro as tank.

And please don't come around the corner with the infamous "I run into everytihng on purpose" players as these are absolutely rare. The majority are Black Mages with a flare too early or a bard using all of his stuff in quick succession etc.

Once I had a healer that would stop to heal me and my cousin for no apparent reason, probably with the same, weird "unwritten rule" attitude we might have broken in this guy's eyes. We did nothing wrong and our health refreshed inbetween the pulls, but it was just weird to see in action what happens when people take this nonsense too far. One time I, as Red Mage again, kept healing one poor soul as the healer showed the same disgusting attitude of "You spank, you tank" - the poor bard was running in circles while the other (cough)holes watched. That made me mad and kinda sad... Healer and tank watching and I try to assist fight and healing until my mana reached critical levels. Are we a team or what?

So, no, there are no unwritten rules. Just courtesy and common sense. Use it. You won't teach someone a lesson by letting him die on purpose. Be a real, honorable tank and help this guy out. For everything else is the votekick feature.

Sincerely,

[Mavrias]

Normal content is what they said so that would include all normal modes.

the thread's about pulling in dungeons. also ive tanked shinryu normal as a samurai. so that point is also moot.

[Awha]

And if you don't get a new one by the time you get to a boss? Not only that, you just added yet more time to the dungeon, as you're now forced to do even smaller pulls and have even less dps going into each battle.

Kicking anyone just for not being up to your standards in speed, tank or not, is detrimental. Now if they're being blatantly bad and refusing to do mechanics, that I can agree with. But kicking shouldn't be a kneejerk thing. It should be the final resort. I never kick unless someone is being specifically interruptive, are afking, or have d/ced for a little too long.

Cannot speak for others but for me is not so much about speed but the enjoyment. I simply do not have fun healing or tanking single pulls. If the run takes longer but I am having fun being a dps tank or healing a dps then for me it was a net positive. Granted I rarely ever queue without friends so my experience differs from the norm. In cases as you mentioned I would simply try with the group to kill the boss.

That is why I mentioned one could argue that 3 dps 1 healer probably is not that much slower or slower then a single pull tank 2 dps 1 healer group. Though admittedly my experience might differ since speed is not the primary reason why I like large pulls though it is a bonus.

[SoulEchelon]

I will replace the nutshell of this topic with a different, yet similar situation that happened last time:

My White Mage in Sohm Al is struggling and I supported him as Red Mage. So once in a while I casted Vercure to get our health above the 30% mark - this was the average health during the dungeon whenever I looked at the party member's health bars. The healer, a Lalafell, was clearly not able for some reason to keep us in good shape, neither was the tank as I also pulled aggro several times by going into melee. So I just stopped attacking, backed off and attacked the only enemy that was not orange in the emnity list and assisted the dedicated healer with these Vercures. But I never even remotely thought of any ways of "punishing" these players by acting irritating myself when it's clear they are struggling.

Is there an unwritten rule that says "Let my mates die despite I have the tools on my fingertips to prevent that?"

Sorry, but if you are a tank and you go like "You tank it, you die" then you should stop playing in groups in general.
What kind of attitude is that? Not playing your role is griefing (at least to GM Karrsul!), so you are also pretty much in trouble if you refuse to heal as healer or to take aggro as tank.

And please don't come around the corner with the infamous "I run into everytihng on purpose" players as these are absolutely rare. The majority are Black Mages with a flare too early or a bard using all of his stuff in quick succession etc.

Once I had a healer that would stop to heal me and my cousin for no apparent reason, probably with the same, weird "unwritten rule" attitude we might have broken in this guy's eyes. We did nothing wrong and our health refreshed inbetween the pulls, but it was just weird to see in action what happens when people take this nonsense too far. One time I, as Red Mage again, kept healing one poor soul as the healer showed the same disgusting attitude of "You spank, you tank" - the poor bard was running in circles while the other (cough)holes watched. That made me mad and kinda sad... Healer and tank watching and I try to assist fight and healing until my mana reached critical levels. Are we a team or what?

So, no, there are no unwritten rules. Just courtesy and common sense. Use it. You won't teach someone a lesson by letting him die on purpose. Be a real, honorable tank and help this guy out. For everything else is the votekick feature.

Sincerely,

I can agree with everything you said. We're supposed to work together, not be at each other's throats.

I will say though that, while it IS rare, there have been people running in front of me as a tank and pulling things before I could. I spoke of it in an earlier post. But again you are right - it's a rarity.