The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Fynlar]

That's a dangerous game, because if you just watch while three other people kill the adds -- and they survive without you -- you've just confirmed to three separate people that you aren't really needed.

That usually doesn't happen (the errant puller surviving, I mean; the vast majority of the time I see this happen when I'm tanking, they end up dying and immediately leaving the dungeon without a word), and quite frankly, as a tank I really don't care if a group decides to kick me. I will get another group far easier than the majority of them.

Not to mention it's a lot more appealing for a DPS player to kick the tank than to kick the healer, if it comes down to that.

The majority of melee DPS will do crappier DPS without someone to reliably hold hate for them so they can hit their positionals. Healer DPS will also be compromised too because they will have to do more babysitting.

It's really not "appealing" for DPS to kick their tank just because his pacing is a little slower than they'd like. If they're really just standing around and being useless most of the time, then sure, but otherwise they're usually just shooting themselves in the foot.

[van_arn]

That usually doesn't happen (the errant puller surviving, I mean; the vast majority of the time I see this happen when I'm tanking, they end up dying and immediately leaving the dungeon without a word), and quite frankly, as a tank I really don't care if a group decides to kick me. I will get another group far easier than the majority of them.

The majority of melee DPS will do crappier DPS without someone to reliably hold hate for them so they can hit their positionals. Healer DPS will also be compromised too because they will have to do more babysitting.

It's really not "appealing" for DPS to kick their tank just because his pacing is a little slower than they'd like. If they're really just standing around and being useless most of the time, then sure, but otherwise they're usually just shooting themselves in the foot.

Then we're in agreement! We'd find each others' companionship in a single-pull party to be insufferable, so a tank kick is mutually beneficial.

And honestly, a little bravado from the healer makes a lot of DPS tingly. Something along the lines of "Since he won't tank, I'll be happy to" has always worked for me when a tank attempts (and fails) a wipe.

[Fynlar]

It actually doesn't really seem like we agree, but sure, if you say so.

[Fluffernuff]

Is... Is this actually a thread discussing the morality of and advocating for griefing someone you dont like?

Honestly, this can be settled in 2 sentences;

Use your words.
Don't be an *expletive*


Justify it however you'd like, but you're going out of your way to punish behavior you dont find acceptable- especially so if you're doing it without a word. Assuming this is solely a PUG situation, of course. As someone that both loathes tanks that pull slow and as a tank constantly finding excuses to pull more than is intended (and will continue to do, thank you SE for this torrent of AoE skills raining down upon this barren land).... I'm sorry, going "too slow" isn't an offense. If you're not even willing to give them the common decency of asking, why should they give you the decency of what you want?

Just... talk. should have plenty of time to with all those unbearably slow pulls full of downtime. Met a tank the other day that was recovering from a concussion. sure, teach them a lesson, you are truly the hero this community deserves.

This would be a much different discussion if this were about tanks that dont talk or pull slow out of spite... but just not enough in general in your roulettes? Cmon, guys. this aint a good look and the new ToS is gonna bear down on you. If you want more tanks around, try not treating the ones you have like garbage.

[MirielleLavandre]

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

[Vahlnir]

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

In my experience, when the tank dies the healer usually isn't far behind. So yeah, I'd be willing to call bull on this as well. And like you I'm also open to proof if there is any.

[Fluffernuff]

snip

Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now. And even entire boss fights, though PLD with a bit more effort than WAR. MP management and all. Neither want to DO IT of course, DPS and all. But I've both seen it and done it myself on request and when healers have D/Ced. Is that grounds for treating healers like second rate citizens?

Also to clarify, im not throwing you under the bus or anything, I just find the silent animosity to be far too much. if you want someone to do something, ask first. this shouldn't be a hard concept. the response shouldnt be to do your thing, make things harder, and then goad or talk down to someone like theyre a dog. That's pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me

[MirielleLavandre]

Also to clarify, im not throwing you under the bus or anything, I just find the silent animosity to be far too much. if you want someone to do something, ask first. this shouldn't be a hard concept. the response shouldnt be to do your thing, make things harder, and then goad or talk down to someone like theyre a dog. That's pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me

Not sure if this is in response to my post, but what animosity? I think I've not said anything at all in my OP or in any of my posts to appear disgusting or to goad or talk down to anyone?

[Fluffernuff]

Not sure if this is in response to my post, but what animosity? I think I've not said anything at all in my OP or in any of my posts to appear disgusting or to goad or talk down to anyone?

I was meaning in general- the responses here toward slow tanks. not you specifically. i've skimmed too much and skipped over the indiviudal infighting, so i apologize for missing nuggets of the discussion. Slow tanks need to be kicked on sight sort of thing. sure, at the end of the day it doesnt really affect too much, but... are they really the toxic one in that situation. i mostly piggybacked off you since your response seemed tailored against deflecting me, and I wasnt calling you out. I was commenting on this thread and I apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding