Needed RDM tweeks after Media Tour

[SaberMaxwell]

1)RDM rotation is no simpler than BRD, so should Repelling Shot do damage again?
2)RDM already has an attack like that: it's called their Melee combo.

1) RDM rotation is much simpler than Bard's. We're not managing multiple dots and song timers simultaneously while keeping an eye on our MP bar as a substitute for a cooldown timer for foe's requiem; there's no buff snapshotting to pay attention to, and beyond timing embolden with trick for the party's gain RDM's burst doesn't line up with the minute-to-minute bursts. I'm saying this as an advocate that RDM has nuances most people underestimate and one that's cleared both Ultimates to boot. Bard has more to pay attention to at any given time than a RDM will.

2) Most of the party is going to be stacked on the boss' rear a good chunk of the time anyway, so the melee combo doesn't mean much as far as risk goes. That's part of what makes displacement a risk: you're displacing yourself from the party, the mechanics, and the heals.

[Nalien]

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing. In that vein, I feel that Engagement is the best compromise: you can keep the attack on cooldown, you don't lose as much for not taking the risk, but there's enough to still be rewarded for taking that risk.

I'd say there's no risk/reward going on here... As I said earlier, it's a skill that ideally you never want to use, which frankly is an absolutely terrible addition for a new level cap... There are basically three situations I see happening;

The arena/encounter has no risk from using Displacement whatsoever, in which case you use Displacement.
The arena/encounter has some small risk from using Displacement, in which case you simply get good and use Displacement.
The arena/encounter is designed in such a way that Displacement is completely unusable, in which case you're forced (read: Punished) to use Engagement.

The second point is I guess where you're seeing the appeal of Engagement, it's for the less "skilled" players and I guess what Yoshida meant when he mentioned player skill impacting Jobs output in the Live Letter. Personally I see the addition of a new skill that I have zero intention of using unless forced to as utterly horrible design. It's a shame too, because "more swordplay" is exactly what I wanted from Red Mage going to Lv80, and Engagement is exactly that, just it shares a cooldown with a superior damage oGCD and is thus a completely worthless addition in my eyes.

[SaberMaxwell]

I'd say there's no risk/reward going on here... As I said earlier, it's a skill that ideally you never want to use, which frankly is an absolutely terrible addition for a new level cap... There are basically three situations I see happening;

The arena/encounter has no risk from using Displacement whatsoever, in which case you use Displacement.
The arena/encounter has some risk from using Displacement, in which case you simply get good and use Displacement.
The arena/encounter is designed in such a way that Displacement is completely unusable, in which case you're forced to use Engagement.

Arenas like o9s and o11s come to mind, where you have the arena sometimes untenable for Displacement but not always (during blaze and level checker); 10s comes to mind, where if Displacement comes off cd during Akh Morn you now don't have to wait until the akh morn is done to use the CD. Better, you can now use Engage to get the thing off CD and then move to your position on the clock. Moments like fresh off of a manafication, you can weave in engagement early into the combo so its off cd sooner than it would be if you waited to the end of the combo to use displacement instead.

Not even just arenas, there are plenty of mechanics that task RDM to be in very specific places where Displacement would get them or others killed.

Like in O8S, Engage would let you keep it off cooldown in tough phases like skulls phase; celestriad phase; trine phase; tower phase; Pasts Forgotten during Big Trine phase. Remember keeping Engage/Displace off CD is a greater gain than just letting the cooldown gestate because you want to wait out for Displacement.

The second point is I guess where you're seeing the appeal of Engagement, it's for the less "skilled" players and I guess what Yoshida meant when he mentioned player skill impacting Jobs output in the Live Letter. Personally I see the addition of a new skill that I have zero intention of using unless forced to as utterly horrible design.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I see the addition of this skill as a good thing, it keeps to the spirit of the original displacement while compromising with people who don't want to just leave it cooled down because it's too dangerous to use sometimes.

[Nalien]

I'd see it as a good thing were it sitting down in the Lv20~30s along with Veraero II and Verthunder II. It's a Lv72 skill though... For starters, that means literally any encounter you can currently think of where it'd be a "nice addition" due to Displacement being unworkable? You still wont have it in any of those encounters. Same goes for Reprise in all honesty... Both incredibly niche skills with incredibly minor usage that would serve Red Mage much better at a lower level, but instead they're our new and "exciting" skills to obtain while leveling to 80... Granted, the level 72/74 skills across all Jobs tend to be on the lackluster side, but they're all still solid upgrades. Broil III is an upgrade on Broil II. High Jump is an upgrade on Jump. Engagement is not an improvement, every time you use it, for whatever reason you want to come up with, you're sacrificing 50 potency as it currently stands. You can justify it whatever way you like, it is designed to be a skill that you ideally do not use, and that is an utterly horrible addition for the new level cap.

[SaberMaxwell]

That's more on their skill dispersement than on the skill itself. The Red Mage kit as we have it in Stormblood is really good; it's an intuitive gameplay style with a comparatively low floor and a bit of a deceptive ceiling. It presents itself well and does basically everything it needs...except for just a few flaws. This is why when they released the job changes, Red Mage was on the list of jobs seeing relatively little change, just some filling out of its kit. So I agree, their dispersement of skills could use some work, but that's for all jobs across all expansions so far.

Reprise being a niche skill for RDM? RDM in Stormblood is the only caster without on demand instant casts (ironically). Black Mage has Firestarter, Thundercloud, and Triplecast (not counting their actual scathe, because it's enough of a potency loss on its own you might as well clip if you're that desperate). Summoner has Ruin 2--full stop. It's 20 potency less and used for most of their weaving outside of DWT anyway. If Red Mage needs to move--right now, Swift is down and no time for even slidecast--it's got nothing. It drops one cast, and because of the nature of Dualcast, it dropping one cast means it has to drop two casts. E. Reprise is a much needed quality of life in my opinion for Red Mage--not to mention that, due to its low costs, if one wanted to use it to trim their mana to force match with the 60s Trick Bursts, they could probably get away with it. As potencies stand right now, Enchanted Reprise gives roughly 136.4 potency per second and Verstone>Veraero gives 132.9 potency per second, so it's not even an immediate loss the moment-to-moment potency per second.

[Nalien]

Reprise being a niche skill for RDM?

Yes.

If Red Mage needs to move--right now no time for even slidecast--it's got nothing.

See, you just described a niche situation. It's common enough that there's certainly a demand for such a skill, but it's still ultimately a niche. You want to keep Reprise usage to a minimum, it isn't meant to be part of your active rotation, it fills a niche.

I'd love such a skill for something like Construct 7, for example. Shame I wont have that, instead we're having to wait until level 76 for such a basic piece of utility... It's not that it's a bad or unwanted addition, it's just that it doesn't belong at such a level... You know what I'd rather have, that also fills a similar utility? Some more skills like Acceleration, skills that can fill a niche but are also solid additions to your entire rotation. An ability that actives Verstone Ready and Verfire Ready? That'd be neat, though would make me morn the loss of Impactful all the more. A skill that makes your next Dualcast proc last for two casts? That offers similar movement utility to Reprise, but is also completely usable throughout your entire rotation. Those are the kind of "not huge but still interesting" skills I'd expect out of the "simple evolution" Yoshida mentioned, not Scathe 61 levels late...

[SaberMaxwell]

Yes.

See, you just described a niche situation. It's common enough that there's certainly a demand for such a skill, but it's still ultimately a niche. You want to keep Reprise usage to a minimum, it isn't meant to be part of your active rotation, it fills a niche.

A niche that's actually quite common in the current endgame, especially in Ultimate.

So we'll compromise: common niche. A common niche that was a gap in SB RDM's kit that I feel needed filling.

I'd love such a skill for something like Construct 7, for example. Shame I wont have that, instead we're having to wait until level 76 for such a basic piece of utility... It's not that it's a bad or unwanted addition, it's just that it doesn't belong at such a level...

That's more on their skill dispersement than on the skill itself. [...] So I agree, their dispersement of skills could use some work, but that's for all jobs across all expansions so far.

That this wasn't included in the quote response you had to me, yet was a point you pushed again confounds me. I won't disagree their skill dispersement needs work, but that's bigger than Red Mage.

You know what I'd rather have, that also fills a similar utility? Some more skills like Acceleration, skills that can fill a niche but are also solid additions to your entire rotation.

I believe that E. Reprise is exactly that. It is a solid addition to the whole rotation for high end content.

An ability that actives Verstone Ready and Verfire Ready? That'd be neat, though would make me morn the loss of Impactful all the more. A skill that makes your next Dualcast proc last for two casts?

So you would have to use Jolt 2 that much more because Verstone and Verfire become commodities you don't want to waste? That sounds a lot like forcing people to use weaker skills. A skill that makes next dualcast last for two casts would be cool, I agree, but I like the idea of having E. Reprise be on demand as well.

Similar movement utility, also completely usable throughout your entire rotation.

Depending on how the numbers work out, so would E. Reprise.

not to mention that, due to its low costs, if one wanted to use it to trim their mana to force match with the 60s Trick Bursts, they could probably get away with it.

Those are the kind of "not huge but still interesting" skills I'd expect out of the "simple evolution" Yoshida mentioned, not Scathe 61 levels late...

Your problem isn't the skills, it's the dispersement. I get that and agree with it. Again, that's more than a Red Mage problem, that's an FFXIV problem.

[Nalien]

So you would have to use Jolt 2 that much more because Verstone and Verfire become commodities you don't want to waste? That sounds a lot like forcing people to use weaker skills.

I'm confused, how would such skills make you use Jolt II more? An ability that gives you Verstone Ready and Verfire Ready lets you avoid Jolt II more... If you didn't get a proc on your last cast and thus have nothing to cast except Jolt II, you pop this ability and cast Verstone or Verfire, since it gives you both... That's less Jolt IIs, not more... I don't see how they'd become commodities you don't want to waste? Perhaps my wording was unclear, but when I said "activates" I meant it simply gives you those status effects. So in theory you could pop this right at the start of combat and open with Verfire, although I doubt the current Red Mage opener would be replaced by such a skill.

Honestly, didn't put much thought into those concepts, but the more I think about it, the more I feel we really should have gotten something like that, given losing Impactful effectively doubles our Jolt II casts... Something to make up for that would have been very welcome...

[SaberMaxwell]

I'm confused, how would such skills make you use Jolt II more? An ability that gives you Verstone Ready and Verfire Ready lets you avoid Jolt II more... If you didn't get a proc on your last cast and thus have nothing to cast except Jolt II... You pop this ability and cast Verstone or Verfire, since it gives you both...

I misread your suggestion, I apologize. I read it as an ability that activates when you have both, not one that activates both.

Honestly, didn't put much thought into those concepts, but the more I think about it, the more I feel we really should have gotten something like that, given losing Impactful effectively doubles our Jolt II casts... Something to make up for that would have been very welcome...

Probably. I think Impact is in a better place now, but if it were me I'd have preferred Impact just take the place of Jolt 2 when procced instead of Scorch.

[ADVSS]

i was pretty hopeful about RDM in Shb but didn't seem to get much at all
Aoe combo
Ver-foul
ver-scathe
Displacement band-aid

Thats literally all that could be done to improve rdm before it gets seriously out of balance, in any direction, the fact that engagement got added as a new "skill" but shares the same cd timer with displacement, means basically, a new skill that really isnt anything new at all. I'm actually relieved that rdm wasnt gutted and put under the surgery table to donate their organs to the other dps