"Tanks and Healers do too much Damage..."

[Vahlnir]

You're not reading my message properly.

What I propose is more mechanics similar to the ones in UCOB. For example, Tenstrike Trio. You know when the mechanic is happening, you know how to resolve it, but its random as to which player gets what part of the mechanic. It forces adjustment on the fly, its not just a "stack here and move here everytime and you'll be fine" deal. Heavensfall Trio is similar in that the tower placements aren't always the same, it needs adjustments on the fly. Nael phase, the thunders and dooms can go on anyone, even the tank. Requires adjustments.

Basically I'm saying maybe we need more mechanics that force adjustments on the fly. Hell, I'm not the biggest fan of mechanics like it, but bring back White Hole, bring back stuff like Gavel, introduce mechanics which can't be resolved by stacking in a star and hitting indom. And more untelegraphed tankbusters (like Alte Roite's Wyrmtails for example) would go a long way into giving less experienced healers and tanks that feeling of being in danger.

What I don't want is the boss to have a chance at any point in a 10 min fight to instantly get off a tankbuster on a tank, in addition to the busters in his rotation. That's anti-fun. Maybe its more clear now.

I think this is an excellent idea. One of those "git gud or go home" sorta deals. When people have to they typically do rise to the occasion. The game just doesn't make them do it as often as it should. Keeping people on their toes would make at least some want to improve because they wouldn't have a choice. Some people can't be bothered though and that will never change.

[Kalise]

You're not reading my message properly.

You know when the mechanic is happening, you know how to resolve it, but its random as to which player gets what part of the mechanic.

Hmm...

I wonder whom is not reading messages properly?

[Tlachtga]

Hmm...

I wonder whom is not reading messages properly?

You obviously, since you just completely ignored the vast majority of the post lol

[Kalise]

You obviously, since you just completely ignored the vast majority of the post lol

I didn't ignore it.

I just wanted to highlight the ridiculousness that you're arguing with me against Random events in encounters and your ideal is... Random events in encounters.

I state that random things that cause people to change their rotation, such as random spikes of damage (This doesn't mean random tankbusters, this can be something like knocking a DPS/Healer to 50% life. It's not killing them, and generally they'll be fine, but you'll want to top them up before another random hit might target them again or they might fail a mechanic and take extra damage)

You go "NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU RANDOM IS EVIL!" then go on to retort about how RANDOM mechanics that cause you to adjust on the fly are what's necessary... Literally the thing you were chastising me about suggesting.

So I think it's VERY clear whom has difficulty reading.

[Aurelius2625]

I was in a Rabanastre run two days ago as WAR. Was third from the top in dps. Not my fault. I have FOUR combo moves including storms eye and path.

Fell cleave. Onslaught. Upheaval.

That is IT for buffing my dmg.

Not my problem that a TANK is beating THIRTEEN other dps.

[Alaray]

I don't think Tank Damage or Healer Damage needs, or should, be nerfed in the game's current state. As it is, after an encounter is learned and is comfortable, tanks and healers have nothing better to do than optimize damage output, maintaining uptime, and so on.

In the current fight design of the game, there's nothing else to do. Enmity is a party mechanic that things like Shirk, Shadewalker, Smokescreen, Diversion, Lucid all help manage (and playing the Enmity Game has never been a fun experience in any MMO I've played, and most moved away from it for a reason. There isn't much depth to the gameplay of: I stand in Tank Stance, I only Use Butcher's Block, Powerslash, Rage of Halone combos).

Even in games where tanks have no DPS stance, or have no other means of mitigation other than keeping up a passive buff -- people still optimize their class's damage output.

Barring echo, a solid DPS can outpuit 7 - 8k~ pending on the job they're on. 6k was by and large passable, but low in a lot of cases (ie: a Samurai or BLM or SMN pulling 6k). Tank DPS was closer to 5.5k on the higher end, and 5k and below on the lower end, so there's still a noticeable gap between tanks and DPS, which is only more noticeable when comparing tanks and healers. This is assuming BiS gear, so farming a fight. Prog/First Clears are different situations I'm not mentioning since they aren't areas where you'd have optimized damage output.

But... numbers aren't in the millions, or hundred thousands, or tens of thousands. They're in the thousands, so everything feels a lot closer together than it actually is. But if a WAR is out damaging a DPS, then the DPS is playing badly and that's it.

Even if you put in random mechanics, or create randomized, spikier damage output (like WoW fight design), people will still try to output as much damage as they can on their class while meeting the checks in a farm situation. Nerfing the damage they can do will just make those players feel slighted: "Why are we being punished for playing well?" would likely be a popular sentiment.


I'm not really going to touch on Eureka since the stats there are different and the gameplay there isn't reflective of the rest of the game, since it's its own contained thing.

[Aurelius2625]

I was in a Rabanastre run two days ago as WAR. Was third from the top in dps. Not my fault. I have FOUR combo moves including storms eye and path.

Fell cleave. Onslaught. Upheaval.

That is IT for buffing my dmg.

Not my problem that a TANK is beating THIRTEEN other dps.

[Tlachtga]

I just wanted to highlight the ridiculousness that you're arguing with me against Random events in encounters and your ideal is... Random events in encounters.

This is what you posted. This is what I disagreed with.

As opposed to GCD heals being used to react to sudden, random, damage spikes, wherein you might need to *Shock* cancel your Stone IV and toss out a quick Cure II to keep someone alive.

Again, there is a difference between "we don't know who is going to get earthshakers first during Tenstrike" and "enjoy this random untelegraphed buster that just takes off 75% of your hp that you have no way of preparing for or predicting outside of clairvoyance"

I state that random things that cause people to change their rotation, such as random spikes of damage (This doesn't mean random tankbusters, this can be something like knocking a DPS/Healer to 50% life. It's not killing them, and generally they'll be fine, but you'll want to top them up before another random hit might target them again or they might fail a mechanic and take extra damage)

It sounds like you just want to force healers to have to randomly top people at any point during a fight and keep them topped just in case they get hit twice by an attack they have no way of preparing for.

In my opinion, that's not fun, nor is it more interesting than what we currently have, and it falls into adding tediousness to the role.

"make sure everyone's topped just in case rng gives them the middle finger and trucks them twice!" yea, no thanks

You go "NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU RANDOM IS EVIL!" then go on to retort about how RANDOM mechanics that cause you to adjust on the fly are what's necessary... Literally the thing you were chastising me about suggesting.

So, in summary, I like that bosses have a set rotation (or two, like Guardian in o7s) but more randomness within mechanics that force adjustments are fine. I don't want completely random boss rotations that are totally unpredictable. I want to be able to prepare for a mechanic, but not 100% predict how it plays out, similar to UCOB. Is this making sense now?

[Kalise]

Again, there is a difference between "we don't know who is going to get earthshakers first during Tenstrike" and "enjoy this random untelegraphed buster that just takes off 75% of your hp that you have no way of preparing for or predicting outside of clairvoyance"

Again, you're equating "damage spikes" to mean "TANKBUSTERS OUT THE ASS".

Which is ridiculous.

Also, who said that it couldn't be prepared for or predicted? Such as it being a telegraphed attack that targeted a random player (Thus if it was someone who already wasn't at full health for some reason, you might want to cancel your cast and react to it)

You're arguing against this asinine belief that "Random damage spikes" means "Random Tankbusters with no telegraph, no sense of consistency and can almost one shot actual tanks"

Which is absurd and in no way suggested in what I've posted.

It sounds like you just want to force healers to have to randomly top people at any point during a fight and keep them topped just in case they get hit twice by an attack they have no way of preparing for.

You mean, instead of simply being able to let Medica II/Aspected Helios tick people back to full life from 50% or lower, healers might actually have some agency thrust upon them to maybe get certain people's life up?

No wai! How would anyone cope? That would be the worst design ever, healers, having to heal people whom are injured!?

/s

You really don't particularly like the idea of Healers having to actually do anything except "Press this oGCD button when Y move happens" do you?

Oh, maybe the target might be random! Okay, but it's still going to be a case of, wait for predetermined attack... Use predetermined response... With the caveat of, you have to target someone after the fact rather than being able to pre-target and pre-cast for them!

Also, again, it's not always a case of "Maybe they this person gets RNG rekt by this attack twice in a row!" maybe it's a case of, someone's going to get blasted by an attack that deals somewhat significant damage, several seconds before a Raidbuster is due to occur. Where depending on whom is hit by the damage, might need to be topped up by a heal before that Raidbuster or might be fine and can pop defensive CD's such as Manaward/Shadeshift or might be a Tank and can mostly shrug the thing off.

In my opinion, that's not fun, nor is it more interesting than what we currently have, and it falls into adding tediousness to the role.

So having to heal people is tedious?

Well then, there exists a role where you won't have to be concerned about such "Tedious" things like "Having to heal people"...

So, in summary, I like that bosses have a set rotation (or two, like Guardian in o7s) but more randomness within mechanics that force adjustments are fine. I don't want completely random boss rotations that are totally unpredictable. I want to be able to prepare for a mechanic, but not 100% predict how it plays out, similar to UCOB. Is this making sense now?

Well, the primary issue with the game as a whole, is that rotations are set in stone. That there isn't and random damage spikes. So literally everything can come down to "Press this oGCD at this, this and this time"

This is present for both Tanks and Healers. Where Tanks don't have to worry about any damage other than the predetermined Tankbusters because there's no significant crits or other burst damage to warrant things like, rolling CD's between Tankbusters. Especially so when they're being backed up by HoTs and Shields that are ridiculously strong.

Where Healers don't have to worry about any "Random" damage forcing them to do something other than spam their single Nuke over and over with the occasional Regen or Shield application and direct responses to predetermined attacks such as AoE heals or oGCD heals.

You might think it's "Bothersome" or "Tedious" to have to actually react to things that aren't predetermined, but so long as jobs have the tools to do so (I.e. If Tanks had actual active mitigation as a standard feature) but the inclusion of non-predetermined things is the only way to break the cycle that is everything being so entirely scripted and thus causing Tanks/Healers to have literally nothing to do but focus entirely on DPS.

Since without random things occurring, you literally can plan out every single CD usage for every single attack before ever stepping foot into the encounter. Which means that the entirety of your "Tanking" and "Healing" gameplay is already accounted for, you merely have to press the buttons at the designated time. Thus the only thing left to do is pump out your DPS.

Having a predetermined attack that randomly targets is a step in the right direction, but it still leads to a pretty stale gameplay where you still know WHAT skills you need to use and WHEN to use them, with the only deviation being that you have to look at who needs to be targeted during the encounter. Then once it's over... That's it, that's the only deviation, you go back to fully focusing on DPS again until the next scripted attack occurs.

Heck, even in games where they DO have random attacks occurring and random damage spikes, if they're not impactful enough you can still get into the habit of being able to easily predetermine your CD usage. Especially if the number or power of CD's can make these things obsolete while still covering the major Busters that form up the basis of standard MMO encounters.

So it's not a easy and perfect solution, but it's a step towards the direction. One where you need dynamic encounters that don't just follow specified scripts in order to lead to dynamic gameplay where Tanks and Healers can find themselves more occupied with mitigating/healing damage than DPSing, with good players being able to gear and play more optimally, reducing the time they spend mitigating/healing and increasing time spent maximizing DPS.

Any time that encounters are predominantly scripted, so will defensive abilities be. Thus leading right back to a "Blue/Green DPS" meta, because there simply won't be anything else for the roles to consider as all of their CD usages have been accounted for prior to engaging with the content.

[Veis_Alveare]

You're arguing against this asinine belief that "Random damage spikes" means "Random Tankbusters with no telegraph, no sense of consistency and can almost one shot actual tanks"

That is very clearly not what they're arguing against.

What you're proposing is random damage spikes that can do 50% of a players health. This means two of those will one shot someone. All you manage to do with that is create an arbitrary window in which as long as the boss is capable of doing that attack healers need to keep the party above 50% of their HP.

This isn't actually adding randomness, the random nature of the attack you're proposing is actually entirely manageable and it's just a "no one before 50%" mechanic.

On the flip side the suggestion is a randomization of the order of attacks that a boss does which I think could actually be interesting and force more reactive healing.

Imagine a branching system where a boss has a phase during which he will cast three raidwide unavoidables, spawn AoEs under players twice, do two single tankbusters and one shared buster and afflict two non-tanks with prey and hit the group with a Charybdis - but you don't know the order those things are happening in.

A microcosm of this was available in o1s - boss would cast Charybdis and then either Roar or Twinbolt so the healers either needed to get the whole party healthy enough to survive Roar or had to focus heal the tank's up (who also needed to be somewhat separate from the party) to survive their shared buster. People figured out quickly that this always happened in a set order but it goes to show how mechanics following each other in different orders can force people to play in different ways.

That would be interesting and would make pre-planned CDs for everyone worth a bit less, instead valuing adaptation and group communication. I think it could be fascinating.