Why don't astro cards stack?

[Killersai]

You moving on from this pointless thing.

funny how my response to you above still applies here because you've not said anything new, different or helpful.

[HyoMinPark]

it is bad design because communication is necessary as a side effect of the design. i have no problem with communication. do you understand this? if communication was a direct and deliberate design choice then i would have no problem with it but communication is necessary here as a SIDE EFFECT of a poor design choice to not allow buffs to stack.

Allowing buffs to stack would create balancing nightmares that would result in jobs like WHM, SAM, and BLM (i.e., jobs that do not offer party buffs/utility) dying a slow, painful death as they are ousted from optimized settings. This already happens with two of them (WHM, SAM); BLM has just now managed to make it back into some of the top speedkills THIS tier because the developers finally allowed it to do enough damage to make up for its lack of utility—they’ve never been good about balancing utility jobs against “selfish” jobs, and it has shown for quite some time now. Do you understand this? Because I don’t think that you do.

That said, communication isn’t necessarily needed to avoid overwriting. Paying attention is—but that’s necessary to complete content, anyways.

and yes i've done this before on my own. it's not hard to watch people's buffs. it's not difficult and i'm not stupid. the issues happen when i'm waiting for the other astro to use his buffs and after expecting him not to the next second, we end up doing it at the same time or if the other astro is unaware and casts his buffs halfway through mine. the issue is unavoidable.

This happens to everyone at some point or another. It’s happened to me as well—I’ve been overwritten and I’ve done the overwriting. Generally what happens is the AST that made the blunder apologizes, and people move on. Overwriting cards isn’t nearly as big of a deal as you’re making it out to be because the content that this usually occurs in does not matter when it comes to balancing. Balancing only needs to be done in high-end settings; not in leveling dungeons.

The fact that the developers already don’t do this is why we have balancing problems now—see BRD/MCH and the piercing debate. Why has BRD/DRG or MCH/DRG taken up two meta slots since Creator? Because the developers don’t understand the way optimized players work; they don’t understand that BRD/MCH will always want a DRG for their piercing debuff because that is 5% of their damage (much like how optimized groups will want AST for that +5% AOE Balance over a WHM that offers then nothing). They don’t balance around piercing when they balance BRD and MCH against one another, and this is why the physical ranged have always ended up better than the casters (particularly BRD—this is an even larger issue with it because they don’t consider how critical hit-enhancing buffs interact with its Repertoire mechanic).

I don’t think you understand any of this, if I’m being honest; and that’s why you don’t understand why people are disagreeing with your suggestions.

i cannot educate every single astro i queue with and i should not have to because of a POOR design choice. stop pretending like the solution is so simple. if you can only suggest things that are obvious then you are of no help. my suggested changes arent necessary you're right because this problem doesnt exist in high level content where people already communicate but that doesn't mean it would be unwelcome.

Unwillingness to communicate, educate, or cooperate does not equate bad design. Stacking cards and allowing other buffs to stack IS bad design because now the jobs that don’t offer buffs—or who offer weak buffs—will suffer even more. Because players that want to min-max will take the jobs where they can stack buffs. They already do this without the stacking.

The solution is simple. This is a non-issue for the majority of players. If you can only plug your ears against those telling you that your solution would cause issues of its own, then we are no longer having any sort of meaningful discussion.

can you actually suggest something useful?

Sure. I suggest that cards (and other buffs) remain as is—they don’t need to stack.


EDIT because I saw an edit:

Edit due to daily post limit:


No they do.
Shields don’t stack, but all regens do stack. Play dual Diurnal AST and you’ll see the two sets of Helios and two Benefics on your tank.

It's a shield thing, not a dual AST thing.

Diurnal AST HoTs do not stack the same way WHM HoTs do. They never have. That's why you don't see two ASTs both in Diurnal Sect for things - one is always Diurnal and the other is always Nocturnal. And that's not because of a "shields are needed" thing either (shields aren't needed for anything other than high-tier Savage and Ultimate); it's because AST regens do not stack with one another. CU’s HoT also does not stack if you have two ASTs. None of their buffs stack, except for maybe Synastry (and I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t).

I literally just tested this with a friend—we were both Diurnal AST in a party and our regens (both Aspected Helios and Aspected Benefic) overwrote one another’s. They do not stack.

[JowyAtreides]

Still doesn't change the fact that it is a complete pain in the rear when another AST overwrites your buff. No matter your own self awareness. Sure people can educate others, but it would be often enough to set up a macro for it and half the time you'll be greeted with a "don't tell me how to play my class" response.

As for actual suggestions...
They shouldn't stack if they are the same card in my opinion.
If they are different AND from another player, I don't see the harm. I think the RNG element is enough to not make this too overpowered, most of the time anyway.

They'll have to do something with the cards for Shadowbringers anyway, due to removal of TP and therefore making the current Spire redundant. Someone suggested on another thread this could become a direct hit buff which I guess is the last remaining stat to receive attention thus far.

Also, do savage/ultimate/extreme organised parties typically NOT have 2 players of the same class and therefore this isn't a problem for them anyway?

[Veis_Alveare]

Also, do savage/ultimate/extreme organised parties typically NOT have 2 players of the same class and therefore this isn't a problem for them anyway?

It's not about it being a problem it's about it being the best possible thing for optimization. Even SCH wouldn't be able to compete with double AST if cards were stackable, they'd just be too good.

funny how my response to you above still applies here because you've not said anything new, different or helpful.

It seems like the only thing you would accept is people agreeing with you.

If you came here to have your preconceived notion validated you came to the wrong place, anyone with any amount of experience playing AST/healing/raiding in general wouldn't think this is a good (or fair) suggestion.

You're bringing up a problem that doesn't exist and asking for a solution. The solution is that you don't have a problem. That is helpful, I'm telling you exactly what you need to do - nothing.

I understand you don't like having your cards overwritten. No one does. That's fine, but the fact of the matter is that your cards are providing almost nothing in any content where this could matter. An AST's cards are worth what their group makes them worth, the issue here is that in a pug environment your chances of running into anyone that's any good are slim. 5% of one competent dps's damage occasionally isn't much and losing that isn't much either.

All this boils down to you not liking how losing your cards feels. The game isn't balanced around that nor should it be.

[HyoMinPark]

As for actual suggestions...
They shouldn't stack if they are the same card in my opinion.
If they are different AND from another player, I don't see the harm. I think the RNG element is enough to not make this too overpowered, most of the time anyway.

Stacking an AOE Balance and an AOE Spear in an opener would not be as broken as two Balances stacked, but it would still be overpowered. This would not serve to balance the healers, but tilt scales in the favor of AST even more than it is now (especially when you compare them to WHM, which is the healer AST “competes” against).

They'll have to do something with the cards for Shadowbringers anyway, due to removal of TP and therefore making the current Spire redundant. Someone suggested on another thread this could become a direct hit buff which I guess is the last remaining stat to receive attention thus far.

Spire will either be reworked into another type of buff or deleted entirely. That they have to change Spire doesn’t mean that they should allow for AST buffs to stack—especially since no other jobs can stack their respective buffs. Again, this would not help the healer balance they are wanting to do going forward.

Also, do savage/ultimate/extreme organised parties typically NOT have 2 players of the same class and therefore this isn't a problem for them anyway?

During Creator when AST Balance was +20% for single target and +10% for AOE, it was not unheard of to find speedkills and parse groups running double AST. It’s fallen out of favor now since Balance is not as strong as it used to be (and with good reason). That said, optimized groups already oust one healer—allowing stacking buffs has the potential to oust two.

Double jobs only impact the ability to build LB. LB building isn’t that critical for most fights, and it didn’t hold people back then so I don’t imagine that it would hold them back going forward.

[ForteNightshade]

i'm not upset because you don't think the content that is impacted by this issue matters. what's sad is how complacent with mediocrity you are. people like you are the reason devs can be lazy and not find solutions that don't harm other forms of content regardless of how unimportant you think they are.

Except they already have a solution. Communicate with your co-healers. There isn't any other option that wouldn't lead to a severely overpowered duo. If cards stack, you now have 10% balance. If they extend the duration, you could theoretically have an endless stream of AoE Balance. Either scenario will result in double Astro being meta. It isn't laziness for them to simply let cards overwrite each other. There is neither a better alternative nor does it matter in the content where this happens. If you have another Astro who refuses to work with you, time your own cards to overwrite theirs or don't worry about it. When it comes to more difficult content like EX Primals or Savage. If you aren't communicating, you probably aren't clearing. Normal mode? It isn't a big deal.

[Seraphor]

I would have agreed that stacking AST cards would be OP, however something has just occured to me.

You could have 30s of double strength Balance. (stacked Balance)
Or you can have 60s of regular Balance. (staggered Balance)

The net result is pretty much the same.
The latter is currently available with coordination...

So is it really that OP?
Of course with stacked you could also coordinate with other burst phases, which would increase overall DPS by more than staggered, but for the vast majority of players that wouldn't happen.

[HyoMinPark]

I would have agreed that stacking AST cards would be OP, however something has just occured to me.

You could have 30s of double strength Balance. (stacked Balance)
Or you can have 60s of regular Balance. (staggered Balance)

The net result is pretty much the same.
The latter is currently available with coordination...

So is it really that OP?
Of course with stacked you could also coordinate with other burst phases, which would increase overall DPS by more than staggered, but for the vast majority of players that wouldn't happen.

Having 30 seconds of +10% stacked Balance during a key period like the opening of a fight is more valuable than 60 seconds of +5% staggered Balance—mainly because the opening of the fight has a myriad of other buffs that stack with this +10%, and it is also the highest point of concentrated damage (in addition to “reopeners” where everything lines up again later on in the fight). You have to consider that, in addition to this +10%, you will likely also have buffs like Trick Attack, Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Foe’s Requiem, and Hypercharge (NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH is still the ideal comp for parse runs as far as I’m aware, with MCH being subbed out with SMN/BLM for speeds). Plus, people will be using Infusions for main stat gains during this time.

60 seconds of 5% staggered Balance would still leave the first Balance buffed by opening buffs and pots, which would inherently make it more valuable than the second round of Balance. This is already the case now when an AST will get a “double Balance” and give a COpp’d Balance in the opener (40 seconds) plus another 30 second Balance after that one falls off (for a total of 70 seconds)—the first Balance is a higher gain because it’s combined with so many other buffs; the second one is weaker because it’s usually naked, or paired only with 1-minute party buffs like Trick Attack (or 1-minute personal buffs like Fight or Flight and Internal Release).



The two are not equal to one another in terms of how much they would give a coordinated group; so no, the net result is not the same.

[Seraphor]

Oh and as it seems I can post again:

Ironically, regens do stack, all of them.
WHM and AST, two WHMs, or two ASTs, you can stack all their regens.

Edit due to daily post limit:


No they do.
Shields don’t stack, but all regens do stack. Play dual Diurnal AST and you’ll see the two sets of Helios and two Benefics on your tank.

It's a shield thing, not a dual AST thing.

[Veis_Alveare]

Oh and as it seems I can post again:

It defintely isn't though. I'm 100% sure you can't stack any AST regen, not even Wheel of Fortune.