Why don't astro cards stack?

[Seraphor]

Ironically, regens do stack, all of them.
WHM and AST, two WHMs, or two ASTs, you can stack all their regens.

Edit due to daily post limit:

Two ASTs cannot stack their regens or their shields.

WHM + WHM = stack
WHM + AST = stack
Di AST + Di AST = no stack

No they do.
Shields don’t stack, but all regens do stack. Play dual Diurnal AST and you’ll see the two sets of Helios and two Benefics on your tank.

It's a shield thing, not a dual AST thing.

[Killersai]

It's not really bad design if you pay attention to what you are doing, and this isn't just an AST but many jobs cannot double stack buffs as they would be OP.

the problem isn't me not paying attention, the problem is that no matter how much attention i pay or however much communication you people preach, randoms will be randoms and this issue will persist and it is the direct result of lazy problem fixing.

"buff stacking is OP? well then let's not let it happen in the first place! simple" this design philosophy is bad, lazy, and unimaginative. you telling me it would be OP is completely useless as there could be many ways for the developers to rebalance buff stacking in such a way that you're not able to screw each other over. maybe stack the durations and not the effects, or have the buffs queue if theyre different so that when one ends, the other activates. i'm sure the devs can come up with many solutions that don't strip away our capabilities.

[Killersai]

Ironically, regens do stack, all of them.
WHM and AST, two WHMs, or two ASTs, you can stack all their regens.

that's good then. they should stack if they're all coming from multiple players. i don't see why they shouldn't. arguing that they would be OP is a bad response that only gives credit to lazy developers. I can understand not allowing buffs to stack as a design choice such as having astros be designed to fulfill a counterpart to regen or shielding when paired with a white mage or scholar respectively but simply not allowing buffs to stack with each other "cuz they be op" is a poor and lazy design choice that defeats the purpose of grouping up.

[HyoMinPark]

this is a very bad way to rebalance. they should stack differently then or refresh durations or be queue'd so that they're not overriden. if i happen to be playing AST with another AST that doesn't know this, and i AOE balance, and he AOE's something else and removes my balance off everyone, the whole group suffers because of poor design choices that should not be the case. there are different ways to rebalance a class without making half their benefit becoming limited by simply being grouped with a second player of your same class.

Then educate them if they overwrite and you think they may be unaware of it being an issue. That’s also not hard to do.

The issue with your suggestion of rebalancing the cards to allow for double stacking would mean that one would have to nerf their potencies. A nerf like this would have to be handled very carefully, otherwise you risk breaking AST in the opposite direction—i.e., making it worthless and not wanted (this was the case when AST was first released in 3.0, and it suffered from that stigma for a while even after it was buffed to be made better).

As it stands now, there is no reason to break the job in the opposite direction just to deal with a mild annoyance (card overwriting) that can be rectified by educating and communication.

it's not difficult but it will happen with randoms until it is changed no matter what level of communication you preach. it's bad design and they should rebalance them in such a way that you can't screw each other over.

Unwillingness to communication and cooperate =/= bad design.

"buff stacking is OP? well then let's not let it happen in the first place! simple

This has already been taken care of—AST cards don’t stack, nor do they need to.

This is not something new. There are other party buffs in this game that do not stack. Refresh and Tactician buffs do not stack if you have multiple physical ranged. Nor should they. DRG’s Battle Litany do not stack. SCH’s Chain Stratagem do not stack. WAR’s Shake it Off and PLD’s Divine Veil do not stack. This is not “lazy design” — this is preventing players from forming meta comps with double jobs and ousting even more roles from optimized settings.

Ironically, regens do stack, all of them.
WHM and AST, two WHMs, or two ASTs, you can stack all their regens.

Two ASTs cannot stack their regens or their shields.

WHM + WHM = stack
WHM + AST = stack
Di AST + Di AST = no stack

[Killersai]

Then educate them if they overwrite and you think they may be unaware of it being an issue. That’s also not hard to do.

The issue with your suggestion of rebalancing the cards to allow for double stacking would mean that one would have to nerf their potencies. A nerf like this would have to be handled very carefully, otherwise you risk breaking AST in the opposite direction—i.e., making it worthless and not wanted (this was the case when AST was first released in 3.0, and it suffered from that stigma for a while even after it was buffed to be made better).

As it stands now, there is no reason to break the job in the opposite direction just to deal with a mild annoyance (card overwriting) that can be rectified by educating and communication.



Unwillingness to communication and cooperate =/= bad design.



Two ASTs cannot stack their regens or their shields.

WHM + WHM = stack
WHM + AST = stack
Di AST + Di AST = no stack

i don't think you understand that no matter how many people i educate it will continue to happen, maybe not with the same person in a specific dungeon but it might happen in the next dungeon and it will continue to be an issue. you cannot educate everyone and you shouldn't have to and unless it is changed it will continue to happen especially in the lower levels. and if you don't think lower level content matters then think again because it does and it should as bad design can lead new players away nor does it mean that it isn't an issue. there's ways to rebalance stacking such that you're not nerfing a class on its own as i've stated before, you could stack DURATIONS or have buffs QUEUE on each other such that when one effect ends, the queue'd buff activates.

[HyoMinPark]

i don't think you understand that no matter how many people i educate it will continue to happen, maybe not with the same person in a specific dungeon but it might happen in the next dungeon and it will continue to be an issue. you cannot educate everyone and you shouldn't have to and unless it is changed it will continue to happen especially in the lower levels. and just because you don't think lower level content matters then think again because it does and it should as bad design can lead new players away.

I’ll just repeat what I said: unwillingness to cooperate by not overwriting card buffs does not mean that this is a bad/lazy design. There are myriads of other buffs and party resources that do not currently stack just like AST cards do not: BRD’s passive crit buffs, BRD’s Battle Voice, BRD’s Foe Requiem, DRG’s Battle Litany, NIN’s Trick Attack, SCH’s Chain Stratagem, PLD’s Divine Veil, WAR’s Shake it Off, MCH’s Hypercharge, SMN’s Devotion. Why should AST be the exception? It shouldn’t. That would be a balancing nightmare.

Lower level content doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things; balancing should not be around leveling dungeons, but level-capped content where optimization takes place (e.g., Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). Though it wasn’t me who said that, so perhaps pay more attention to who you’re responding to.

there's ways to rebalance stacking such that you're not nerfing a class on its own as i've stated before, you could stack DURATIONS or have buffs QUEUE on each other such that when one effect ends, the queue'd buff activates.

This is already possible—it’s called paying attention to your co-AST, watching their buffs, and timing your own. This can even be done without communication—I’ve done it multiple times in all sorts of 8-man content at the level 50, level 60, and level 70 level. It’s truly not that difficult.

Your suggested change is not needed.

[Veis_Alveare]

i don't think you understand that no matter how many people i educate it will continue to happen, maybe not with the same person in a specific dungeon but it might happen in the next dungeon and it will continue to be an issue. you cannot educate everyone and you shouldn't have to and unless it is changed it will continue to happen especially in the lower levels. and if you don't think lower level content matters then think again because it does and it should as bad design can lead new players away nor does it mean that it isn't an issue. there's ways to rebalance stacking such that you're not nerfing a class on its own as i've stated before, you could stack DURATIONS or have buffs QUEUE on each other such that when one effect ends, the queue'd buff activates.

But what you're missing is that it doesn't matter.

Most of the people you meet in random Trial roulettes or whatever are doing so little damage that losing the 5% buff from your spread balance literally is nothing to the run.

Either talk to people or don't but asking for a change that would effect high end raiding for the sake of your feelings in casual content is entitled and shortsighted. We don't balance around fluffing trial roulette in a game that has content like Ultimate, I'm sorry if that upsets you then pick a new job.

[Killersai]

I’ll just repeat what I said: unwillingness to cooperate by not overwriting card buffs does not mean that this is a bad/lazy design.

Lower level content doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things; balancing should not be around leveling dungeons, but level-capped content where optimization takes place (e.g., Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). Though it wasn’t me who said that, so perhaps pay more attention to who you’re responding to.



This is already possible—it’s called paying attention to your co-AST, watching their buffs, and timing your own. This can even be done without communication—I’ve done it multiple times in all sorts of 8-man content at the level 50, level 60, and level 70 level. It’s truly not that difficult.

Your suggested change is not needed.

it is bad design because communication is necessary as a side effect of the design. i have no problem with communication. do you understand this? if communication was a direct and deliberate design choice then i would have no problem with it but communication is necessary here as a SIDE EFFECT of a poor design choice to not allow buffs to stack.

and yes i've done this before on my own. it's not hard to watch people's buffs. it's not difficult and i'm not stupid. the issues happen when i'm waiting for the other astro to use his buffs and after expecting him not to the next second, we end up doing it at the same time or if the other astro is unaware and casts his buffs halfway through mine. the issue is unavoidable. i cannot educate every single astro i queue with and i should not have to because of a POOR design choice. stop pretending like the solution is so simple. if you can only suggest things that are obvious then you are of no help. my suggested changes arent necessary you're right because this problem doesnt exist in high level content where people already communicate but that doesn't mean it would be unwelcome.

can you actually suggest something useful?

[Killersai]

But what you're missing is that it doesn't matter.

Most of the people you meet in random Trial roulettes or whatever are doing so little damage that losing the 5% buff from your spread balance literally is nothing to the run.

Either talk to people or don't but asking for a change that would effect high end raiding for the sake of your feelings in casual content is entitled and shortsighted. We don't balance around fluffing trial roulette in a game that has content like Ultimate, I'm sorry if that upsets you then pick a new job.

i'm not upset because you don't think the content that is impacted by this issue matters. what's sad is how complacent with mediocrity you are. people like you are the reason devs can be lazy and not find solutions that don't harm other forms of content regardless of how unimportant you think they are.

[Veis_Alveare]

can you actually suggest something useful?

You moving on from this pointless thing.