Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Drayce1]

Suddenly, I'm reminded of a guy I know irl who plays a tank. Well..."plays" is a strong word. He...resides in MMOs to fulfill his hobby of making people angry for a laugh.

He decided to ready-check the party before every mob.

I aleady like that guy.

[Feidam]

Gonna call BS on this one. I've played every major MMO that has come out in the past 20+ years and not a single one has disabled the kick feature.

No mmorpg that i know has fully disabled vote to kick, but some have placed other restrictions on it like can’t vote kick in this zone or if a boss has started etc. Also there are mmo’s that have gotten rid of the vote to kick at times due to player abuse but they were all first person shooters to my knowledge.

[Jeeqbit]

You should avoid Duty Finder if you don't like encountering players less skilled, less knowledgable or newer to content than you. The purpose of roulettes is to first match you with those queueing directly for dungeons (usually because they are new to them), so deliberately matching yourself with new players and then kicking them for being new is illogical.

no one was able to show me within the context how the tank role is granted a certain level of entitlement that say a dps that refuses to aoe is granted.

Tanks are historically rarer, so kicking them has long not been in the party's interest; it can work out faster to stick with what they've got even if the tank underperforms. The difficulty of finding a replacement tank is what makes them more valuable than other roles. Whether they are still that rare I don't know.

they pull others across the finish line, but the reality is you are leaving them open to an even harsher fall when someone gets sick of pulling them.

How good they are is moot if it's Duty Finder and not extreme, savage or ultimate, because it just isn't meant to matter.

They can be given this feedback if and when they actually choose to do extreme, savage or ultimate. There are also plenty of polite ways to give it.

They are a s*** tank if they can't handle this beyond 70, though. That's the whole point, a little flash spam and an occasional cooldown is all it takes. There's nothing to be afraid of. Even the necessary gear is included in the ilvl requirement to even zone in.

What if they leveled their tank alt in POTD or used a jump potion for it? What if they started playing a month ago and cleared only the essential MSQ dungeons and avoided all of the optional ones, and only did small pulls in all of them? What if we add to this that they play more casually than you do for the story and don't bother with high-end content and high-end mindsets?

Big pulls may be as simple as you make out but they are not experienced enough, confident enough or knowledgable enough to concern themselves with them. If you don't want to be paired with random tanks of varying skill levels, then you shouldn't use a matching system that matches you with people of varying skill levels.

[LeonTrifang]

As a tank, I was horrible at keeping aggro. The only aggro I could keep was the aggro of my team cause I wasn’t going fast enough. At one point, the healer took a huge group and brought it to me because we were going too slow. I tried my best to aggro the entire huge group, and we survived..... well everyone else did. I died at the very end. It was so stressful and so hard. What I’m getting at, is some people find healing hard, and stressful. Everyone is good and bad at different things. Where I find healing relaxing, easy, and fun, my tank main friend finds it stressful, and hard. Also, I always go at the pace everyone else agrees with. I can keep up with large pulls as a healer, but am happy to have those rare tanks that take it slow.

[Gemina]

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

I can just as easily say that the easiest way for not dealing with random players and those with anxiety is to queue up with a premade.

Some jobs that players are a fan of, and have been a fan of for years just happen to fall into a role they are not comfortable playing. DRK is a great example of this. Before it's implementation, a lot of players wanted it to be DPS, but it ended up being a tank. A lot of players would prefer GUN to be DPS as well, and it's going to be a tank. I am most comfortable playing a healer and really wanted DNC to be the fourth; it's going to be a DPS, which is what I am the most uncomfortable playing.

Now before you go off telling me to use premades, you should know that I usually do. Especially if my anxiety is particularly high as it often is when doing duties for the first time, or being there for the first time as a particular role. So I indeed do practice what I preach, and I'm not a hypocrite. However, I can't expect my FC to always be there to hold my hand. There are going to be times where I have to queue up alone. During this time, I have as much right to use the DF as anyone else.

I will agree that if you don't want to be judged, any kind of social activity is probably not for you. But it is also unhealthy. The "cure" for tanxiety is not to stay away from it; the cure is to get out there and do it; grab it by the horns and own it instead of letting it own you.

All of this is really neither here are there though, because the DF is all about grouping up with random players, with random skill levels, and with a myriad of personalities and mentalities. There's no avoiding it so the burden truly is on the person whose expectations are high, and not the one of lower skill, anxiety, laziness or whatever the hell you want to call it. The players who choose and can accept that they take what they can get are the ones that should be using DF. The kick feature is not meant to be a arbitrary grading system, but it is used as such because players can get away with it.

[Mavrias]

I can just as easily say that the easiest way for not dealing with random players and those with anxiety is to queue up with a premade.

Some jobs that players are a fan of, and have been a fan of for years just happen to fall into a role they are not comfortable playing. DRK is a great example of this. Before it's implementation, a lot of players wanted it to be DPS, but it ended up being a tank. A lot of players would prefer GUN to be DPS as well, and it's going to be a tank. I am most comfortable playing a healer and really wanted DNC to be the fourth; it's going to be a DPS, which is what I am the most uncomfortable playing.

Now before you go off telling me to use premades, you should know that I usually do. Especially if my anxiety is particularly high as it often is when doing duties for the first time, or being there for the first time as a particular role. So I indeed do practice what I preach, and I'm not a hypocrite. However, I can't expect my FC to always be there to hold my hand. There are going to be times where I have to queue up alone. During this time, I have as much right to use the DF as anyone else.

I will agree that if you don't want to be judged, any kind of social activity is probably not for you. But it is also unhealthy. The "cure" for tanxiety is not to stay away from it; the cure is to get out there and do it; grab it by the horns and own it instead of letting it own you.

All of this is really neither here are there though, because the DF is all about grouping up with random players, with random skill levels, and with a myriad of personalities and mentalities. There's no avoiding it so the burden truly is on the person whose expectations are high, and not the one of lower skill, anxiety, laziness or whatever the hell you want to call it. The players who choose and can accept that they take what they can get are the ones that should be using DF. The kick feature is not meant to be a arbitrary grading system, but it is used as such because players can get away with it.

i'm not saying that anyone has any more or less right to use duty finder. and no, the kick feature is not an arbitrary grading system. its a tool to remove a member of the party via a majority vote if the party does not wish to go on with that member. nothing more, nothing less. some people are simply more willing to use it than others.

if a job you aesthetically like is a tank, thats fine, you can play it, but you will be expected by the party to fill your role and to fulfill that role in a way the party finds acceptable. if you dont like the standards a random group does or doesnt have you can go with friends or hope that the group is willing to tolerate your playstyle instead of their own. if they dont and kick you? well thats that.

[Gemina]

i'm not saying that anyone has any more or less right to use duty finder. and no, the kick feature is not an arbitrary grading system. its a tool to remove a member of the party via a majority vote if the party does not wish to go on with that member. nothing more, nothing less. some people are simply more willing to use it than others.

Go ahead and please provide a source where it is stated the kick feature is used for this purpose. While you go ahead and do that, I will provide my own:

Vote Dismiss

• Vote dismiss is a function whereby players who are absent for extended periods or harass others can be democratically expelled from the party.
• Please be warned that unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act.
• Dismissing a Player
  To initiate a vote, first select Party Members from the Social section of the main menu. Next, select the party member you wish to nominate for dismissal, then Vote Dismiss from the submenu.

Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...in/party_play/
Under the tab 'Party Play'

Also located on this page are the minimum expectations as set out by the devs of what a job is required to do in the role it is assigned. If you wish to provide a dev driven source that states that tanks are required to mass pull, or healers are required to DPS as a minimum requirement of their performance, please provide it.

Party Roles
All Disciples of War and Magic possess unique traits and skills that allow them to be categorized into one of three roles: Tank, Healer, or DPS. A combination of all three roles is required when undertaking a duty, and an adequate understanding of the role you choose is key to effective teamwork.

• Tank
  Classes: Gladiator, Marauder
  Jobs: Paladin, Warrior, Dark Knight
  These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.
• Healer
  Classes: Conjurer
  Jobs: White Mage, Scholar, Astrologian
  These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.
• DPS
  Classes: Pugilist, Lancer, Rogue, Archer, Thaumaturge, Arcanist
  Jobs: Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, Bard, Machinist, Black Mage, Summoner, Red Mage
  These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.
  

So as of right now, no. A party member being dismissed due to majority vote is how the kick feature works. It is not the reason to use said feature. And some people are more willing to abuse this feature than others. In the source I provided in relation to the OP, the devs could very much ban every single one of those players that voted to kick that tank if they investigated the matter. There would be nothing any of them could do about it. If it got to the point that it was taken up in court, it would very much rule in favor of SE; easily. They simply choose to not do this, and players take advantage of it.

if a job you aesthetically like is a tank, thats fine, you can play it, but you will be expected by the party to fill your role and to fulfill that role in a way the party finds acceptable. if you dont like the standards a random group does or doesnt have you can go with friends or hope that the group is willing to tolerate your playstyle instead of their own. if they dont and kick you? well thats that.

Expectations set by the party will more often than not be higher than the expectations set by the devs. This is why I used the word 'arbitrary'. I have higher expectations as well. I expect healers to contribute to damage during their downtime. I expect tanks to pull more than one pack of mobs. I expect DPS to support the group with enmity reducers, rezzes, and buffs. If they are not meeting those expectations, I'm not going to use the kick feature for reasons other than what is stated in the source I provided. They need to be doing at least the bare minimum, and I couldn't care less about those who feel we're coddling them, or promoting bad play. It's a dungeon. It's a roulette. It's a player I will very likely not ever see again, ever. My time, and energy has more important places to be allocated. And that's that.

[van_arn]

What if they leveled their tank alt in POTD or used a jump potion for it? What if they started playing a month ago and cleared only the essential MSQ dungeons and avoided all of the optional ones, and only did small pulls in all of them? What if we add to this that they play more casually than you do for the story and don't bother with high-end content and high-end mindsets?

Big pulls may be as simple as you make out but they are not experienced enough, confident enough or knowledgable enough to concern themselves with them. If you don't want to be paired with random tanks of varying skill levels, then you shouldn't use a matching system that matches you with people of varying skill levels.

What if they're an RMT bot? It doesn't matter if they leveled through potd, used a jump potion, or started a month ago. If they're past 70 and can't hang with their party's expectations, then the party can judge them terrible and they get the boot. Perhaps encourage them to run a lower-level bit of content that they can manage with the job they don't know how to play.

And I'll continue using any system I desire, especially since the game has a safety features in place to ensure the button-averse cannot cause too much frustration.

[van_arn]

Vote Dismiss

• Vote dismiss is a function whereby players who are absent for extended periods or harass others can be democratically expelled from the party.
• Please be warned that unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act.
• Dismissing a Player
  To initiate a vote, first select Party Members from the Social section of the main menu. Next, select the party member you wish to nominate for dismissal, then Vote Dismiss from the submenu.

Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...in/party_play/
Under the tab 'Party Play'

Emphasis democratically. The vote is the judge, jury, and executioner.

Unjustified only means a justification is needed, and it's almost impossible to not have a justification for a vote to pass.

That could be as simple as "My chocobo companion could do better."

[Feidam]

Emphasis democratically. The vote is the judge, jury, and executioner.

Unjustified only means a justification is needed, and it's almost impossible to not have a justification for a vote to pass.

That could be as simple as "My chocobo companion could do better."

You totally missed first part of the description and it’s spirit. I believe the new rules are designed for this type of issue. But you also aren’t going to change your mind unless you get reported and sanctioned. So it will be up the players you treat this way to decide to report you or not; if you in fact do this in game.