Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Mavrias]

tank anxiety is just a term people came up with to describe the pressure a tank has, ultimately being responsible for a lot of what happens. Some tanks dont like tanking large groups because they would rather avoid a wipe. Some dont like the idea of even losing hate for a moment.


As to doing more harm than good, i promise you, you are wrong. If everyone kicked people they thought were playing poorly most people would no longer use duty finder. The only reason that kick exists, is because most people dont use it that way.

even though you feel like getting kicked is not a big deal, for most players it is the absolute worst outcome from using the duty finder.

You have to understand the main purpose of dungeon duty finder is for everyone to be able to complete content. It requires a high population of people using it to be effective. If random players, even at low skill cannot complete basic dungeons, they have no reason to play the game. It is not in SE best interest to have 40% of the population have no way to ddo daily dungeons, or be afraid to enter duty finder in fear of being kicked.

This is magnified for tanks, because the honest truth is, an inexperienced undergeared tank will be most visible. most people wont notice what a dps is doing, but getting hit? dying? pretty obvious. This part of why the tank is mostly the one that sets the pace, because he bears the real responsibility for deaths.


You feel like the goal of people in dungeon duty finder should be to improve the skills of the population. You are incorrect. The main purpose is so that people can progress. People dont sign up for the duty finder to get lessons on their job, or to pass tests for their role. That, for some is a secondary goal, but the first goal is to succeed. If people kick others based on their subjective rating of other players, chance of success when queue up will decrease, and people will no longer do it.

If everyone took your stance, SE would disable kicking. In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen. Either that or people stop randomly grouping.

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

i have literally never seen a company disable kicking as a result of people using the feature, thats anecdotal at best.

[Physic]

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

i have literally never seen a company disable kicking as a result of people using the feature, thats anecdotal at best.

hmm, thought it was aion, or phantasy star universe but i cant find anything, so maybe i'm wrong

[Gemina]

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

I can just as easily say that the easiest way for not dealing with random players and those with anxiety is to queue up with a premade.

Some jobs that players are a fan of, and have been a fan of for years just happen to fall into a role they are not comfortable playing. DRK is a great example of this. Before it's implementation, a lot of players wanted it to be DPS, but it ended up being a tank. A lot of players would prefer GUN to be DPS as well, and it's going to be a tank. I am most comfortable playing a healer and really wanted DNC to be the fourth; it's going to be a DPS, which is what I am the most uncomfortable playing.

Now before you go off telling me to use premades, you should know that I usually do. Especially if my anxiety is particularly high as it often is when doing duties for the first time, or being there for the first time as a particular role. So I indeed do practice what I preach, and I'm not a hypocrite. However, I can't expect my FC to always be there to hold my hand. There are going to be times where I have to queue up alone. During this time, I have as much right to use the DF as anyone else.

I will agree that if you don't want to be judged, any kind of social activity is probably not for you. But it is also unhealthy. The "cure" for tanxiety is not to stay away from it; the cure is to get out there and do it; grab it by the horns and own it instead of letting it own you.

All of this is really neither here are there though, because the DF is all about grouping up with random players, with random skill levels, and with a myriad of personalities and mentalities. There's no avoiding it so the burden truly is on the person whose expectations are high, and not the one of lower skill, anxiety, laziness or whatever the hell you want to call it. The players who choose and can accept that they take what they can get are the ones that should be using DF. The kick feature is not meant to be a arbitrary grading system, but it is used as such because players can get away with it.

[Mavrias]

I can just as easily say that the easiest way for not dealing with random players and those with anxiety is to queue up with a premade.

Some jobs that players are a fan of, and have been a fan of for years just happen to fall into a role they are not comfortable playing. DRK is a great example of this. Before it's implementation, a lot of players wanted it to be DPS, but it ended up being a tank. A lot of players would prefer GUN to be DPS as well, and it's going to be a tank. I am most comfortable playing a healer and really wanted DNC to be the fourth; it's going to be a DPS, which is what I am the most uncomfortable playing.

Now before you go off telling me to use premades, you should know that I usually do. Especially if my anxiety is particularly high as it often is when doing duties for the first time, or being there for the first time as a particular role. So I indeed do practice what I preach, and I'm not a hypocrite. However, I can't expect my FC to always be there to hold my hand. There are going to be times where I have to queue up alone. During this time, I have as much right to use the DF as anyone else.

I will agree that if you don't want to be judged, any kind of social activity is probably not for you. But it is also unhealthy. The "cure" for tanxiety is not to stay away from it; the cure is to get out there and do it; grab it by the horns and own it instead of letting it own you.

All of this is really neither here are there though, because the DF is all about grouping up with random players, with random skill levels, and with a myriad of personalities and mentalities. There's no avoiding it so the burden truly is on the person whose expectations are high, and not the one of lower skill, anxiety, laziness or whatever the hell you want to call it. The players who choose and can accept that they take what they can get are the ones that should be using DF. The kick feature is not meant to be a arbitrary grading system, but it is used as such because players can get away with it.

i'm not saying that anyone has any more or less right to use duty finder. and no, the kick feature is not an arbitrary grading system. its a tool to remove a member of the party via a majority vote if the party does not wish to go on with that member. nothing more, nothing less. some people are simply more willing to use it than others.

if a job you aesthetically like is a tank, thats fine, you can play it, but you will be expected by the party to fill your role and to fulfill that role in a way the party finds acceptable. if you dont like the standards a random group does or doesnt have you can go with friends or hope that the group is willing to tolerate your playstyle instead of their own. if they dont and kick you? well thats that.

[Gemina]

i'm not saying that anyone has any more or less right to use duty finder. and no, the kick feature is not an arbitrary grading system. its a tool to remove a member of the party via a majority vote if the party does not wish to go on with that member. nothing more, nothing less. some people are simply more willing to use it than others.

Go ahead and please provide a source where it is stated the kick feature is used for this purpose. While you go ahead and do that, I will provide my own:

Vote Dismiss

• Vote dismiss is a function whereby players who are absent for extended periods or harass others can be democratically expelled from the party.
• Please be warned that unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act.
• Dismissing a Player
  To initiate a vote, first select Party Members from the Social section of the main menu. Next, select the party member you wish to nominate for dismissal, then Vote Dismiss from the submenu.

Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...in/party_play/
Under the tab 'Party Play'

Also located on this page are the minimum expectations as set out by the devs of what a job is required to do in the role it is assigned. If you wish to provide a dev driven source that states that tanks are required to mass pull, or healers are required to DPS as a minimum requirement of their performance, please provide it.

Party Roles
All Disciples of War and Magic possess unique traits and skills that allow them to be categorized into one of three roles: Tank, Healer, or DPS. A combination of all three roles is required when undertaking a duty, and an adequate understanding of the role you choose is key to effective teamwork.

• Tank
  Classes: Gladiator, Marauder
  Jobs: Paladin, Warrior, Dark Knight
  These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.
• Healer
  Classes: Conjurer
  Jobs: White Mage, Scholar, Astrologian
  These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.
• DPS
  Classes: Pugilist, Lancer, Rogue, Archer, Thaumaturge, Arcanist
  Jobs: Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, Bard, Machinist, Black Mage, Summoner, Red Mage
  These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.
  

So as of right now, no. A party member being dismissed due to majority vote is how the kick feature works. It is not the reason to use said feature. And some people are more willing to abuse this feature than others. In the source I provided in relation to the OP, the devs could very much ban every single one of those players that voted to kick that tank if they investigated the matter. There would be nothing any of them could do about it. If it got to the point that it was taken up in court, it would very much rule in favor of SE; easily. They simply choose to not do this, and players take advantage of it.

if a job you aesthetically like is a tank, thats fine, you can play it, but you will be expected by the party to fill your role and to fulfill that role in a way the party finds acceptable. if you dont like the standards a random group does or doesnt have you can go with friends or hope that the group is willing to tolerate your playstyle instead of their own. if they dont and kick you? well thats that.

Expectations set by the party will more often than not be higher than the expectations set by the devs. This is why I used the word 'arbitrary'. I have higher expectations as well. I expect healers to contribute to damage during their downtime. I expect tanks to pull more than one pack of mobs. I expect DPS to support the group with enmity reducers, rezzes, and buffs. If they are not meeting those expectations, I'm not going to use the kick feature for reasons other than what is stated in the source I provided. They need to be doing at least the bare minimum, and I couldn't care less about those who feel we're coddling them, or promoting bad play. It's a dungeon. It's a roulette. It's a player I will very likely not ever see again, ever. My time, and energy has more important places to be allocated. And that's that.

[van_arn]

Vote Dismiss

• Vote dismiss is a function whereby players who are absent for extended periods or harass others can be democratically expelled from the party.
• Please be warned that unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act.
• Dismissing a Player
  To initiate a vote, first select Party Members from the Social section of the main menu. Next, select the party member you wish to nominate for dismissal, then Vote Dismiss from the submenu.

Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...in/party_play/
Under the tab 'Party Play'

Emphasis democratically. The vote is the judge, jury, and executioner.

Unjustified only means a justification is needed, and it's almost impossible to not have a justification for a vote to pass.

That could be as simple as "My chocobo companion could do better."

[Feidam]

Emphasis democratically. The vote is the judge, jury, and executioner.

Unjustified only means a justification is needed, and it's almost impossible to not have a justification for a vote to pass.

That could be as simple as "My chocobo companion could do better."

You totally missed first part of the description and it’s spirit. I believe the new rules are designed for this type of issue. But you also aren’t going to change your mind unless you get reported and sanctioned. So it will be up the players you treat this way to decide to report you or not; if you in fact do this in game.

[van_arn]

You totally missed first part of the description and it’s spirit. I believe the new rules are designed for this type of issue. But you also aren’t going to change your mind unless you get reported and sanctioned. So it will be up the players you treat this way to decide to report you or not if you in fact do this in game.

What you believe really doesn't matter when a vote is available. Nor does what someone individually believes matter when a group decides they don't want to keep someone around.

You're endlessly defending the players that could very well be bots on the basis of what, compassion? Pity? A desire to feel like you're protecting someone?

No, the only thing that matters is if someone fills their chosen role in PF. They signed up, saying "I can do this." Saying a human player needs to do more than my chocobo is not unreasonable, nor is it a "savage" threshold to meet.

The thing so many seem to happily ignore is *I* don't do anything; I might put forward a vote, but the party is the one doing the kicking. Others have to see that player as someone they'd rather replace too, and a single underperformer has absolutely no right to obstruct the party.

A sub-chocobo underperformer at this range (ilvl locked post-70) is a harasser.

[Gemina]

Emphasis democratically. The vote is the judge, jury, and executioner.

Unjustified only means a justification is needed, and it's almost impossible to not have a justification for a vote to pass.

That could be as simple as "My chocobo companion could do better."

Democratically doesn't mean anything other than was pointed out already. It just shows how the system works. And in the case of a dungeon, you don't even need a 'majority' rule. Two votes i.e. half and that player is gone. The actual emphasis is on harassment and AFK, which are the INTENDED reasons for using the dismiss feature. SE has acknowledged that the feature is not being used as intended, as I pointed out in my last post. You keep boasting like you have the power, and seem to be on some kind of high that you can readily and steadily use this feature to get rid of players you don't like. You have even admitted that a lot of players will see the vote dismiss and just click yes without even paying attention. If SE ever does crack down on this feature, you will be one of the most miserable players in Eorzea. But for now, by all means keep using this feature as YOU intend.

[MariaArvana]

Democratically doesn't mean anything other than was pointed out already. It just shows how the system works. And in the case of a dungeon, you don't even need a 'majority' rule. Two votes i.e.

Not to nitpick, but it actually is a majority. If someone moves to vote dismiss someone, it falls on the remaining 2 people to vote. The person putting forth the dismissal is obviously a yes, which means that if at least one other person says yes, you now have a majority of 2/3.

Same goes in 8 mans. 4/7 is a majority, just as 50.<infinite zeros>1% is a majority. The system is designed so that a tie never occurs.