Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[MStowastiqVahlshdeh]

Tank may set the pace, but the healer has to agree to it, or that pace is not possible, no matter how fast or slow. The tank cannot set the pace alone when dependent on efficient heals to do so. The dps cannot go forward either, if the healer cannot heal at the pace the tank sets up.

I think its all good to set a pace but a tank should always make sure his/her healer is able and comfortable with the chosen pace first.

The most comfortable situation I have experienced is at the beginning of the duty, when the tank informs the party and healers that he/she wishes to do big pulls. If the healer is not okay with this, the tank usually continues on with smaller pulls and the duty goes smoothly.

The alternatives:

A tank who runs into duty and assumes that big pulls are okay when they are not or perhaps the healer was not prepared for big pulls, the duty wipes and people begin getting frustrated because they have to start over. This inevitably spends more of the time that the big pull tank wanted to save in the first place.

Vote replacing the healer: Again, this spends more time. The time taken to vote dismiss. The time taken to realize that the healer cannot sustain big pulls, which probably means a wipe happened [see above example]. And finally the time it takes to re-recruit a new healer for the duty. This also spends more of the time that the tank wanted to save by doing big pulls in the first place.

One other thing, the tank also needs to be okay with and capable of big pulls before engaging them. No matter how great the healer is, the goal of quick efficient duty via big pulls would be contradicted by having to restart because the tank cant handle large pulls.

So in my experience, its always best for the tank to first make sure that the healer can handle the pace that he/she wishes to set.

[Awha]

I have played many mmos and have always tanked in each of them and have never heard of tank anxiety before. I have heard of anxiety but is tank entitlement so prevalent in this game they get their very own version of anxiety that the group has to conform to? I suffer from anxiety and that is my problem maybe to a degree also my support systems problem. Random strangers should not be expected to be mindful of mu anxiety issues, it is something I have to over come not something others inherently have to accept they can choose to buy by no means should I expect it. I think overall that is my issue and this thread opened by eyes to it. FFXIV community imo does more harm then good when people promote this notion that the baseline should be to adjust to the minority.

[van_arn]

Suddenly, I'm reminded of a guy I know irl who plays a tank. Well..."plays" is a strong word. He...resides in MMOs to fulfill his hobby of making people angry for a laugh.

He decided to ready-check the party before every mob.

Tanks like that are why yoship gave scholar selene

[WaterShield]

All who are calling on tanks to do "what the party wants" have forfeited every right to be salty, bitch and moan when the tank dies because you wanted to force them to do what YOU wanted, rather than what THEY were comfortable with. Literally NEVER insult them, get mad, yell at them, or do anything toxic at all. You wanted that big pull, you OWN it for demanding it. Full stop.

There. That's some of that "taking responsibility" stuff that I hear about a lot. Take responsibility for demanding something that might go wrong. Do that, and at least you'll have the stones to own up to a bad call for when things go south.

If someone can do that, then I can accept them enforcing their playstyle enough to literally kick someone playing the game that has done NOTHING wrong... but you know... play the game?

Also, never make a mistake, or underperform. You know, if you're a "bad healer" and can't "play your job at max level" you shouldn't heal. You also shouldn't DPS if your dps is bad, cus you know... max level. Git gud scrub. You have NO RIGHT to be in MY party by being a "bad player". Don't ever pick up a new job, either. Or use a jump potion. How DARE you infringe in my right to speed kills and never wiping. You're max level, no excuses, slacker.



I hope that all of you calling for tanks to be "good" get served a nice taste of your own medicine. We're all mortals, here. Mercy and patience are free gifts that you can give without limit. No one literally logs on and says, "Today, I want to be mediocre, or even worse. Gee I hope I never get better and stay the same, and never learn to do more!"

I just don't understand how someone could be so cruel and vicious to another living, breathing human being to punish them for trying to play a game that they paid for, when it's not even EXTREME or SAVAGE we're talking about here. It's a dungeon. Just LEAVE and take the penalty if someone's playing offends you so much.

Will they also take responsibility for being unable to play their class at a minimum acceptable level at endgame? Deciding to kick someone is not vicious or cruel. Have you never had a moment as a child where other children didn't want to play with you? Guess what, you learn from it and grow as a person, or you continue to be someone that alienates people. Alternatively, they just don't want you around no matter what you do, but at that point you are better off for not being around them.

I don't understand this narrative where the group is obligated to keep someone around, who is sucking their enjoyment out of the activity at hand. That's not how any activity in life works.

As stated earlier but a bit more plainly. When I do not kick someone for under performing that badly I'm not being nice, I'm tolerating them and silently getting very upset with them. If things come to a head and the rest of the group say they want to kick them, I don't have to think twice about clicking that button.

[Physic]

I have played many mmos and have always tanked in each of them and have never heard of tank anxiety before. I have heard of anxiety but is tank entitlement so prevalent in this game they get their very own version of anxiety that the group has to conform to? I suffer from anxiety and that is my problem maybe to a degree also my support systems problem. Random strangers should not be expected to be mindful of mu anxiety issues, it is something I have to over come not something others inherently have to accept they can choose to buy by no means should I expect it. I think overall that is my issue and this thread opened by eyes to it. FFXIV community imo does more harm then good when people promote this notion that the baseline should be to adjust to the minority.

tank anxiety is just a term people came up with to describe the pressure a tank has, ultimately being responsible for a lot of what happens. Some tanks dont like tanking large groups because they would rather avoid a wipe. Some dont like the idea of even losing hate for a moment.


As to doing more harm than good, i promise you, you are wrong. If everyone kicked people they thought were playing poorly most people would no longer use duty finder. The only reason that kick exists, is because most people dont use it that way.

even though you feel like getting kicked is not a big deal, for most players it is the absolute worst outcome from using the duty finder.

You have to understand the main purpose of dungeon duty finder is for everyone to be able to complete content. It requires a high population of people using it to be effective. If random players, even at low skill cannot complete basic dungeons, they have no reason to play the game. It is not in SE best interest to have 40% of the population have no way to ddo daily dungeons, or be afraid to enter duty finder in fear of being kicked.

This is magnified for tanks, because the honest truth is, an inexperienced undergeared tank will be most visible. most people wont notice what a dps is doing, but getting hit? dying? pretty obvious. This part of why the tank is mostly the one that sets the pace, because he bears the real responsibility for deaths.


You feel like the goal of people in dungeon duty finder should be to improve the skills of the population. You are incorrect. The main purpose is so that people can progress. People dont sign up for the duty finder to get lessons on their job, or to pass tests for their role. That, for some is a secondary goal, but the first goal is to succeed. If people kick others based on their subjective rating of other players, chance of success when queue up will decrease, and people will no longer do it.

If everyone took your stance, SE would disable kicking. In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen. Either that or people stop randomly grouping.

[Physic]

Will they also take responsibility for being unable to play their class at a minimum acceptable level at endgame? Deciding to kick someone is not vicious or cruel. Have you never had a moment as a child where other children didn't want to play with you? Guess what, you learn from it and grow as a person, or you continue to be someone that alienates people. Alternatively, they just don't want you around no matter what you do, but at that point you are better off for not being around them.

I don't understand this narrative where the group is obligated to keep someone around, who is sucking their enjoyment out of the activity at hand. That's not how any activity in life works.

As stated earlier but a bit more plainly. When I do not kick someone for under performing that badly I'm not being nice, I'm tolerating them and silently getting very upset with them. If things come to a head and the rest of the group say they want to kick them, I don't have to think twice about clicking that button.

the difference is, when others dont want to play with you, you dont have to wait 10-25 minutes to audition for the next audition.

if no one lost any progress, kicking wouldnt be a big deal.

Also, if people kicked everyone they thought sucked, the dungeon duty finder couldnt do its job, which is to create a means for any player to complete content they need to progress.

Ex trials, Savage, even raids, those are meant to be optional content. Where if you get kicked, you can still progress. Dungeons are the baseline progression. Blocking people from completing it would destroy the game.

[Mavrias]

tank anxiety is just a term people came up with to describe the pressure a tank has, ultimately being responsible for a lot of what happens. Some tanks dont like tanking large groups because they would rather avoid a wipe. Some dont like the idea of even losing hate for a moment.


As to doing more harm than good, i promise you, you are wrong. If everyone kicked people they thought were playing poorly most people would no longer use duty finder. The only reason that kick exists, is because most people dont use it that way.

even though you feel like getting kicked is not a big deal, for most players it is the absolute worst outcome from using the duty finder.

You have to understand the main purpose of dungeon duty finder is for everyone to be able to complete content. It requires a high population of people using it to be effective. If random players, even at low skill cannot complete basic dungeons, they have no reason to play the game. It is not in SE best interest to have 40% of the population have no way to ddo daily dungeons, or be afraid to enter duty finder in fear of being kicked.

This is magnified for tanks, because the honest truth is, an inexperienced undergeared tank will be most visible. most people wont notice what a dps is doing, but getting hit? dying? pretty obvious. This part of why the tank is mostly the one that sets the pace, because he bears the real responsibility for deaths.


You feel like the goal of people in dungeon duty finder should be to improve the skills of the population. You are incorrect. The main purpose is so that people can progress. People dont sign up for the duty finder to get lessons on their job, or to pass tests for their role. That, for some is a secondary goal, but the first goal is to succeed. If people kick others based on their subjective rating of other players, chance of success when queue up will decrease, and people will no longer do it.

If everyone took your stance, SE would disable kicking. In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen. Either that or people stop randomly grouping.

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

i have literally never seen a company disable kicking as a result of people using the feature, thats anecdotal at best.

[Aramina]

In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen.

Gonna call BS on this one. I've played every major MMO that has come out in the past 20+ years and not a single one has disabled the kick feature.

[herewegoagain]

Yesterday I went into Leveling Roulette with my friend, with whom I always do daily roulettes and dungeons with as mostly Tank and Healer combo speedrunning everything with no wipes. We got into Sastasha normal mode as SCH and RDM and groaned a little. I'm in no way a pro player and don't do hard content in this game, but I don't want to doze off so I did a cheer emote for the tank and said "pull all". Tank was happy with the first two bats and no reply, to which I responded with a cry emote. We respected the Tank's silent wishes and never pulled extra mobs or asked again, only showing our eagerness to move forward by standing at max range between current pack and next one. Probably a bit passive aggressive.

Half the dungeon later the tank asked us for AoE. Seemingly caving in to our wish and/or might have just been going slow and easy for the greenleaf BRD. My eyes lit up as I returned from my slouched position induced by the exciting Ruin spam gameplay, not having cast a single heal for half the dungeon. Tank had a surge of courage and promptly pulls from wall to wall for the rest of the now short dungeon, with sufficient CD usage. My RDM friend Scattering away, the greenleaf BRD surprisingly spamming Quick Knock, and I finally get to heal. Yay, dozens of mobs die just as fast as previous pulls of 3 mobs did, and it was way more fun and exciting. I know at least my friend and I thought so, and were thankful for the time saved to do other activities.

This is my experience from Sastasha all the way to Ghimlyt Dark. Players who want slow progression just to keep it safe. Well it's slow AF and you're chaining it for gear and to level up or running several roulettes for rewards. They don't reward you per hour. I'd rather do it in <20 minutes than 40 minutes. You are capable of much more than you think and just need the encouragement to strive to do more and better. To try to take on at least 3, no, 4 menacing looking bats at once. The more you do it the better you and everyone around you gets at it.

If you think you're doing badly at a job and don't know why, you could try recording your run and try to see what's actually going wrong. Perhaps you pulled a few packs and only used Convalescence. Well it doesn't reduce incoming damage and your healer was still sprinting trying to catch up to you, so you died in 5 seconds. Perhaps you didn't even keep an eye on the Healer at all and didn't know that you could have prevented that death yourself by knowing that the Healer hadn't caught up beforehand. Try Hallowed Ground or Sentinel + a Clemency or two to give healer room to close in, breathe, and set up. That's what you do as Tank in most games, you grab attention and provide space and opportunities for teammates. You were the Healer that couldn't save the rushing Tank in time? Perhaps you forgot about all your spells and buffs except Cure I. Stay glued, sprint if tank sprints. Try to not panic use an out-of-range Medica II when tank has stopped and is rapidly losing HP. Cancel that and go heal to full with a quick oGCD heal, Shield, pop Largesse, Regen, and go to town managing mana depending on the DPS. Tank not going to die within the next 10s because Lagresse Regen and Tank CD is too damn good? AoE a bit. PLD using Clemency? Probably AoE until everything is dead. Oh hey, the DPS were great too and you didn't even have to hard cast any heal at all that big pull in a lvl 70 dungeon. The packs died super slow and Healer ran out of MP and so you wiped? Tank and Healer are glancing over at you as DPS? Your job is to not die, lower your enmity generation, and deal as much damage as possible. Study how your job deals as much damage as possible in both AoE and single target. It takes 10 minutes to learn a proper rotation and a basic idea about how your job works and how you affect others, but many, many hours to master it. Put in some effort to make things better for everyone.

When I go into a 4 man dungeon as a Tank these are some things I set out to accomplish, kind of in order of priority: Trust in the capabilities and potential of my party members. Never lose enmity on anything. Make sure party members who say they are new are informed of important/dangerous mechanics before the fight. Always keep an eye on my Healer. Never let it get boring for anyone for even a second. Set it up as good as possible for my DPS, positionals and density. Reduce incoming damage as much as possible while dealing as much damage as possible. Get to the next fight as fast as possible.

I don't expect everyone else to feel, think, and do what I do. I do expect my fellow players to at least try to be the player that others think is pretty awesome and did more than pull their weight. The player others and I want to commend. Inspire others to pick up your job because you showed how awesome it can be. This is just stuff I feel is important to me and for the success of my parties. Last thing I would do is to go into a dungeon run and go as slow and safe as possible because "people are probably below average in skill and just want to get it over with while watching a movie", until they have to tell me to speed it up. And I would rather quit the game than refuse to do it after being asked. I want to believe people are great, and want to give them the chance to shine. I don't mind if any Healer accidentally let me die that one time every other day (not often, because most healers are actually awesome). Let me know if you wanna try that huge pull again, or else I'll automatically adjust and slow down to not cause a second wipe. The first wipe would be on us, further wipes on me. Most DPS don't mind as pulling all of it is still faster than going from pack to pack and it pretty much always succeeds on the second attempt. I don't mind risking one wipe per duty if it makes the party look badass and unstoppable.


It's my first post on here after having played for many years and I've read more threads today than in those years. Might be labeled some elitist-casual hybrid scum and get hated for my thoughts and rushed playstyle, but I do what has worked for me and continues working. Sorry if you meet me in duty finder.

I would not have kicked the Tank in OP's post, but silently gone through with it, as always. I would have asked once and not pressure if declined. Thanks for reading my rant~

[Physic]

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

i have literally never seen a company disable kicking as a result of people using the feature, thats anecdotal at best.

hmm, thought it was aion, or phantasy star universe but i cant find anything, so maybe i'm wrong