Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Vadrythen]

Hey,

Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement around tank entitlement vs group entitlement, which inherently holds more value. What started this conversation within our discord is that group of players within our discord removed a tank that refused to do larger pulls despite the group offering encouragement, and telling them not to worry if things go south that they have their back. The tank refused, so the three removed the tank from the group.

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story. Overall just confused since for longest I have been told everything is a group effort enmity control, dos, but pace seems to be a different beast for some. Pace is considered a group effort in the sense that it is expected for DPS to AoE, yet if the overall group is capable of larger pulls and the tank says otherwise then in that case the tank is correct is dictating the pace, but I thought pace was a collective effort.

Agonizes for the spelling and grammatical mistakes.

Take the role out of it. Simplify you're example. You have 4 people who want to do a dungeon.

(Tank) Case 1: 3 people wanna do it one way, 1 person won't join in. It's okay for the majority to decide to kick in that instance. They're all there to accomplish the same goal, but one wants to do it "slower" or "less funner" for the other three. Fair.
(DPS not aoeing) Case 2: 3 people wanna do it one way, 1 person won't join. It's okay for the majority to decide to kick in that instance. They're all there to accomplish the same goal, but one wants to do it "slower" or "less funner" for the other three. Fair.

...you see where I'm going with this, right? By ignoring the role and just looking at it as an activity, with a start and an end, you get to the crux of what you're talking about - a majority of a group wanting to do something a certain way, and the last member not joining in (or trying to join in). It's fair they kick, no matter the role. The role is irrelevant.

That's my take. Hope it helped. No offense intended.

[Fyce]

Tanks do have greater entitlement. But consider your examples. If a DPS doesn't AoE, the party can still make up the DPS. If the tank can't handle big pulls, knows they can't handle big pulls, and then gets pressured into doing them and fails, then the party will go up one side the tank and down the other. They will get called a shit tank. There is a much greater stress on the tank to perform well and mistakes that cause wipes are not looked on fondly.

So yes, tanks do have greater entitlement, and it's justified.

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands. It's a real person behind that toon. I show respect by acknowledging they know their limits. I show willingness to work within those limits. It's called a party for a reason. We're all intended to work together as a team.

I hope you understand that the only things you have to do in order to make a big pull are to run forward and press Flash/Overpower/Unleash a few times. That's it. That's all it takes. Even using cooldowns isn't mandatory as the healer should be able to somewhat adjust. The healer is "handling the pull", by the way, not the tank. Once enmity is secured, the tank doesn't have to do much except pray that their healer can more HPS than the incoming damage. You even said that you -as a healer- were letting your tank know if they could pull more. If the tanks were actually the ones fully in control of how to handle big pulls, you wouldn't be able to say that.

Besides, I really don't see what kind of mistakes someone could do after that much playtime. And if they do somehow make some really, really weird mistakes that they shouldn't be doing at level 70, then they really aren't entitled to anything except getting told to get back at the Hall of the Novice. A tank cannot cause a wipe except if they are extremely bad, which isn't an excuse, and even less a reason to give them priviledge (don't reward mediocrity). And I'm obviously not talking about exceptions (ie. new to the dungeon, having a disability, whatever).

Whatever the case, stop making big pulls look like some kind of 200 IQ gameplay that would make tanks deserve to be treated differently from a healer or a DPS. We could really benefit from that misconception going away. Tanking is easy. A big pull can be done by literally pressing only two buttons: forward and AoE enmity. Sorry but this is not enough to give them a "greater entitlement". It's far from being justified. And this is coming from a WAR main.

We often see threads of people talking about tank anxiety, when there is no reason to be worried. And you are not helping here.

Edit: Just to be clear, this post was written within the context of max level dungeons (50/60/70) where gear completly obliterates everything.

[Awha]

Take the role out of it. Simplify you're example. You have 4 people who want to do a dungeon.

(Tank) Case 1: 3 people wanna do it one way, 1 person won't join in. It's okay for the majority to decide to kick in that instance. They're all there to accomplish the same goal, but one wants to do it "slower" or "less funner" for the other three. Fair.
(DPS not aoeing) Case 2: 3 people wanna do it one way, 1 person won't join. It's okay for the majority to decide to kick in that instance. They're all there to accomplish the same goal, but one wants to do it "slower" or "less funner" for the other three. Fair.

...you see where I'm going with this, right? By ignoring the role and just looking at it as an activity, with a start and an end, you get to the crux of what you're talking about - a majority of a group wanting to do something a certain way, and the last member not joining in (or trying to join in). It's fair they kick, no matter the role. The role is irrelevant.

That's my take. Hope it helped. No offense intended.

That is what started the discussion, since at the core that is also how I view it, but as you can see people have differing views which makes it an interesting topic for me since I find it interesting to see what exactly makes it so some feel differently about a certain situation.

[Vadrythen]

That is what started the discussion, since at the core that is also how I view it, but as you can see people have differing views which makes it an interesting topic for me since I find it interesting to see what exactly makes it so some feel differently about a certain situation.

Yeah, I can see from the post explosion. *shrugs* I'll stay where I am with the simplicity of it. :P

[Laphael]

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.

Adapting to the weaker link is nothing else but a carry for that person. It won´t help the person learn for the future, it won´t tell the person that there is maybe something wrong with the rotation, or how they do the job.
We are talking about lvl 70 dungeon here. Expert roulett, where you already did at least 7 lvl 70 dungeons. The standart for lvl 70 dungeons are big pulls for a reason = big pulls in lvl 50/50/60 dungeons are easy, even for casuals.

Take the role out of it. Simplify you're example. You have 4 people who want to do a dungeon.

(Tank) Case 1: 3 people wanna do it one way, 1 person won't join in. It's okay for the majority to decide to kick in that instance. They're all there to accomplish the same goal, but one wants to do it "slower" or "less funner" for the other three. Fair.
(DPS not aoeing) Case 2: 3 people wanna do it one way, 1 person won't join. It's okay for the majority to decide to kick in that instance. They're all there to accomplish the same goal, but one wants to do it "slower" or "less funner" for the other three. Fair.

...you see where I'm going with this, right? By ignoring the role and just looking at it as an activity, with a start and an end, you get to the crux of what you're talking about - a majority of a group wanting to do something a certain way, and the last member not joining in (or trying to join in). It's fair they kick, no matter the role. The role is irrelevant.

That's my take. Hope it helped. No offense intended.

Those kicks should happen more often.
Then we wouldn´t have the problem for lvl 70 players not knowing there jobs at all.


The "Tank sets the pace" argument is the reason we have quite a few Tanks with "god complex" thinking they are irreplaceable and can do whatever they want in a group with 3 or 7 other players.

[TaleraRistain]

You even said that you -as a healer- were letting your tank know if they could pull more. If the tanks were actually the ones fully in control of how to handle big pulls, you wouldn't be able to say that.

You're completely wrong. Telling someone the option is there is not the same as making the decision for them. I let the tank know that I think we're handling current pulls well and I'm fine with it if they feel comfortable doing big pulls. And that I'm okay as well if they want to stay with the current size. It's still completely up to the tank to execute the big pull, handle any mitigation, and make sure to control the enmity on everything they grab. I just keep their health bar high enough to do it.

You see those threads about tank anxiety because groups don't care if big pulls stress the tank out. And just because YOU might find it easy doesn't mean everyone does. I've had plenty of tanks thank me for my consideration of their comfort levels and most often do try to big pulls when the pressure is off. Some still find they have issues, so we go back to small pulls.

I'm a good healer and I find healing easy but I can have empathy toward those who aren't as good at it. Sounds like you could stand to do that for your fellow tanks instead of just writing off their feelings and concerns because you don't experience it yourself.

[Reinha]

The "Tank sets the pace" argument is the reason we have quite a few Tanks with "god complex" thinking they are irreplaceable and can do whatever they want in a group with 3 or 7 other players.

But the tank does set the (pulling) pace. That's the character taking and holding aggro, so who else is going to set the pace? No one's going to take over the tank's character to do it for him/her, and someone else attempting to do the pulling will result in an even slower run.

Of course that doesn't mean the tank is irreplaceable, just that whoever joins to replace him/her takes over the task of pulling. It's down to chance whether the new tank will be faster at it than the previous. The group still doesn't get to choose the pace.

I don't know why there is even a need to discuss this tbh. "You choose your own play style and others can kick you for it" is how things have always worked for every role.

[Laphael]

But the tank does set the (pulling) pace. That's the character taking and holding aggro, so who else is going to set the pace? No one's going to take over the tank's character to do it for him/her, and someone else attempting to do the pulling will result in an even slower run.

Of course that doesn't mean the tank is irreplaceable, just that whoever joins to replace him/her takes over the task of pulling. It's down to chance whether the new tank will be faster at it than the previous. The group still doesn't get to choose the pace.

I don't know why there is even a need to discuss this tbh. "You choose your own play style and others can kick you for it" is how things have always worked for every role.

pulling=/=setting the pace

If the party tells the tank: please pull more/less, we can/cannot handle it, and the tank says "NO, I´m the tank i set the pace", then there is something wrong.

Especially in the case op mentioned, the party asked the tank to pull bigger and he didn´t even try.

[Physic]

Adapting to the weaker link is nothing else but a carry for that person. It won´t help the person learn for the future, it won´t tell the person that there is maybe something wrong with the rotation, or how they do the job.
We are talking about lvl 70 dungeon here. Expert roulett, where you already did at least 7 lvl 70 dungeons. The standart for lvl 70 dungeons are big pulls for a reason = big pulls in lvl 50/50/60 dungeons are easy, even for casuals.



Those kicks should happen more often.
Then we wouldn´t have the problem for lvl 70 players not knowing there jobs at all.


The "Tank sets the pace" argument is the reason we have quite a few Tanks with "god complex" thinking they are irreplaceable and can do whatever they want in a group with 3 or 7 other players.

its not expert roulette for everyone in the party. Roulette puts people who need the dungeon for main story/quests/gear with people who click roulette. Everyone noted that pulling everything is not always good while leveling, which is the vast majority of how a newer player would have done dungeons. A lot of the people talking about how large pulls are the best way to do things have not been undergeared/underexperienced for years. They also ignore that some players are just more risk averse than others. Some tanks view a wipe as the worst result.

[Fland]

But the tank does set the (pulling) pace. That's the character taking and holding aggro, so who else is going to set the pace? No one's going to take over the tank's character to do it for him/her, and someone else attempting to do the pulling will result in an even slower run.

Of course that doesn't mean the tank is irreplaceable, just that whoever joins to replace him/her takes over the task of pulling. It's down to chance whether the new tank will be faster at it than the previous. The group still doesn't get to choose the pace.

I don't know why there is even a need to discuss this tbh. "You choose your own play style and others can kick you for it" is how things have always worked for every role.

Taking and holding aggro are not necessarily setting the pace. I could just stand there and told the DPS and healers to pull the mobs and bring them to me. I then take and hold the aggro. In this case, I don't set the pace as a tank.
I actually encountered this before (forgot the dungeon, I think some level 50/60 one). The tank and the caster are friends, and the caster were the one pulling all the mobs and brought them to his tank friend. The friend then takeover the aggro. There was no issue and the dungeon did not run slower.