Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[WaterShield]

All I was pointing out is that large group pulls aren't absolutely, 100% better/faster than single group pulling, like was being claimed. It's never a good idea to make an absolute claim like some have been doing, because there's no such thing in reality.

And where did you get the idea I was implying that "the stars have to be aligned"? Did you even read the conclusion of that post? Here it is again:

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Bolded the relevant parts. I never claimed if you just screw one tiny thing up it messes up the whole thing.

They are absolutely 100% better/faster than single group pulling full stop.

If the group is doing the stuff you are suggesting? Then they will have the same issues with small pulls and will be slow regardless. This is not down to the method used but their lack of basic reading comprehension and the ability to press 1-3 buttons.

[Feidam]

Fair point. I suppose I don't view an expression compelling a playstyle the same as kicking over a difference in playstyles but it's their ToS, not mine. It could very well overrule their previous stance on things and that's fine. Their terms leave a little too much open to interpretation imo.

Yeah they are very vague. Kind of needs to be though. The tighter the rules the more you have loopholes for folks to slip through. Highly frustrating when it’s vague though. keeps debates like this going.

[hydralus]

They are absolutely 100% better/faster than single group pulling full stop.

If the group is doing the stuff you are suggesting? Then they will have the same issues with small pulls and will be slow regardless. This is not down to the method used but their lack of basic reading comprehension and the ability to press 1-3 buttons.

Unless we're talking lower level dungeons where people don't even have AoEs to utilize. Doing brayflox with a PLD, WHM, DRG and NIN for example you may as well pull 1 group at a time. Granted those are niche situations.

[Gemina]

I'll give you some real truth. Some of these other players don't raid and don't main all 3 roles like I do. Regardless of what anyone says. A tank can set pace but isn't anymore important than anyother role. Everyone is equal but tank and healers have alot to deal with in a raid. It's all about team work. If anyone tells you that all the roles are not equal then there stupid. Without enough dps you wipe without a healer everyone dies, without a tank everyone dies. It's all about equal team work.

I agree and disagree here. Because fewer people play tanks, there is a certain amount of value associated with them due to supply vs demand. They are much less expendable, especially in comparison to DPS players. Don't get me wrong, this does not entitle the tank to act like a jerk and be disrespectful towards others. There are tanks who do think this way, and also non-tank mains who will queue up as one for the insta-Q privilege in order to progress content, aesthetics, or whatever. It is not cool at all, and they should be kicked from groups. However, I don't think it is accurate to say that all three roles are equal. However, all three are of equal importance in most cases when it comes to clearing content. There are some instances that can be done without tanking or healing.

From that perspective, I can understand where some of the comments are coming from that are in opposition to my own. I understand that some of these players want to make an example of said tanks, put their foot down and say, "Dude, just coz you're a tank; it doesn't mean we won't be ask quick to boot your ass." But you have to choose your battles. I've dealt with tanks SO much worse than those who do small pulls. It such a trivial thing to boot a tank for in comparison to the leet tanks who think they are gods. We can't just assume that a tank who does small pulls is of this mentality. We're burning down houses to kill a spider by doing this, and the damn spider still survives!

Obstructing gameplay entails more than just having a slightly longer dungeon run. It means making it outright miserable to get through. Let's be real here; when we're doing dungeons via roulettes, we don't really want to be there. Dungeons we actually want to do we queue up for specifically. In case of the former, it already isn't an enjoyable experience with the exception of some rare intangible factor like getting a known youtuber in your group or something. But if our time is so precious that we can't just deal with randoms, then there isn't much choice other than to go into roulettes with a premade. DF is a privilege where you sacrifice certain freedoms for the sake of the convenience with getting a faster means to putting a group together. People abuse this privilege because they know SE won't crack down on every case where someone gets kicked. Hence the whole, "difference in playstyle."

[WaterShield]

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

They aren't? They are kicking people for being so below average that doing average game play is supposedly unthinkably unattainable for them. Why are you defending people who have the nerve to say "my unwillingness to learn how to do something easy, is more important than at least 3 other peoples time"? It's not like we're asking them to have fully optimized rotations and 90% plus uptime etc...

[WaterShield]

Unless we're talking lower level dungeons where people don't even have AoEs to utilize. Doing brayflox with a PLD, WHM, DRG and NIN for example you may as well pull 1 group at a time. Granted those are niche situations.

We aren't though? This discussion has been hyper focused on endgame dungeons... where things hit like wet noodles? I have even mentioned previously that leveling dungeons are treated differently because things can kill you much easier there.

Edit: post cap

My mistake, then. I do scream inwardly a bit when a tank is sitting at 100% health with a regen and they're pulling 1 pack at a time. Thankfully it has been very rare to run into that.

This is the situation that upsets me, and as it is so rare to run in to, I maintain that it is acceptable to expect that it won't happen.

[Aramina]

Unless we're talking lower level dungeons where people don't even have AoEs to utilize. Doing brayflox with a PLD, WHM, DRG and NIN for example you may as well pull 1 group at a time. Granted those are niche situations.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is speaking within the context of leveling dungeons. Everything I have seen is focused solely on end-game dungeons.

[WaterShield]

Pretty much this.

It doesn't take extensive search on the healer forums to come across a post where a healer is griping because a tank bites off more than he can chew. We have a similar thread there to the DF thread here to go and vent. Tanks who melt like butter in a hot oven are not a rare occurrence. No amount of regens, ogcds, or boosted gcds are going to save them or the group. They could have a low ilv, broken gear, not using proper CD rotations, or a combination of those.

Hell, this just happened to me the other night in Temple of the Fist - a level 70 dungeon. This DRK pulled wall to wall after the second boss, remained in DPS stance, and only used Living Dead. His Walking Dead status was almost instantly negated because I was cure bombing the crap out of him, and had no room for offensive gcds. I exhausted everything and was left with adlo and physick spam. He still dropped, and then the rest of us got picked off.

The thing is, I feel this actually justifies kicking the tank. Why? Because he was not able to perform the core part of his job, which involves maintaining aggro. As a lv70 DRK myself, I am fully aware of what his toolkit consists of, and always FT the tank in dungeons when they do pulls so I can keep a closer eye on them. Whether his gear was not up to date or broken doesn't even matter. By choosing to do a supplementary task that is involved with tanking i.e. large pulls, he compromised the entire party because he lost all aggro when he dropped. All of us ended up taking damage, and eventually got KO'd. Yet, many players in this thread and on these forums will complement such a tank for "trying" despite the wipe, even though full blown wipes are going to add a significant amount of time to the run. Far more than small pulls.

Ah well, I just continue to sit over here scratching my head.

I would argue that having relevant gear to the dungeon and having it repaired is an even more basic skill. There is nothing for anyone to defend about that... yet I have seen threads with people arguing that people can't be expected to gear themselves appropriately because that its too harsh or some such tripe.

[hydralus]

We aren't though? This discussion has been hyper focused on endgame dungeons... where things hit like wet noodles? I have even mentioned previously that leveling dungeons are treated differently because things can kill you much easier there.

My mistake, then. I do scream inwardly a bit when a tank is sitting at 100% health with a regen and they're pulling 1 pack at a time. Thankfully it has been very rare to run into that.

[Gemina]

I would argue that having relevant gear to the dungeon and having it repaired is an even more basic skill. There is nothing for anyone to defend about that... yet I have seen threads with people arguing that people can't be expected to gear themselves appropriately because that its too harsh or some such tripe.

I don't think you are arguing with me here though? We both acknowledge that in order for a tank to perform their most basic of tasks they need to have relevant gear with good condition. Without these requirements met, they are going to have trouble with maintaining aggro, and staying alive. If they are not on their feet, it is impossible for them to do their job. It's no longer about big vs small pulls in this case. Having to resort to smaller pulls becomes a circumstance of their neglect. Kick immediately! No one is doing this though. Instead, we're booting adequately geared tanks for pulling too small. Can you see why I'm scratching my head?

The threads that I do see more of, is the request to put an ilv requirement in leveling dungeons. This is another head scratcher. SE is basically allowing players to be lazy and neglectful by doing this. Leveling dungeons are actually harder to progress than end game dungeons, and it makes absolutely zero sense.