Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Feidam]

Improper expulsion voting
This means excluding another person by manipulation of expulsion voting.

・Intentional leaving or disconnection
This means obstructing another person's game play by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server.

・Other obstruction of play
This means all other behaviour that deliberately obstructs another person's game play by some means.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1

This the official word on the support center for obstruction of play. They go into enough detail for me. I am going to go with needs more than not large pulling to kick someone. Now if asked and that tank gets ugly well now you have the behavior offense.

[AnnaRosa]

Ultimately, I know I won't change your mind and you'll definitely won't change anyone's mind here. While I enjoyed the debate for the most part, I see where certain mindsets come from. It seems like having standards is a crime in this game in the end.

Great community, btw.

It's basic common sense the standards there are preached in such post are personal standards not SE setting such if SE would release a sequence of skill rotation for each job and would state this is the best optimal solution for your way of gaming would totally agree with your post.

In similar situations where players can't even reach a consensus and have different metrics or even two different rotations in same role for the same damage parse (yes in tank jobs too) then can't agree with you, because your ideal optimal rotation might not be to the other player, and we return again to the same pointless post as the beginning.

For you put yourself in a superior level to judge how other player does his or her role yet the same will happen to you and in the end will be you being kicked, to not speak about the contradictory directions I've seen players give to others while they were raiding or doing dungeons to the same roles.

The best you can do to teach others on how they should play their roles is to set yourself as example and demonstrate every time you join a dungeon or a raid or even Savage/ Extreme and so on and explain in a chilled environment inside game that way you will have helped the player, not with pointless and useless dramas in forums those are not effective to teach anyone or even call their attention.

[Lilseph]

It's basic common sense the standards there are preached in such post are personal standards not SE setting such if SE would release a sequence of skill rotation for each job and would state this is the best optimal solution for your way of gaming would totally agree with your post.

In similar situations where players can't even reach a consensus and have different metrics or even two different rotations in same role for the same damage parse (yes in tank jobs too) then can't agree with you, because your ideal optimal rotation might not be to the other player, and we return again to the same pointless post as the beginning.

For you put yourself in a superior level to judge how other player does his or her role yet the same will happen to you and in the end will be you being kicked, to not speak about the contradictory directions I've seen players give to others while they were raiding or doing dungeons to the same roles.

The best you can do to teach others on how they should play their roles is to set yourself as example and demonstrate every time you join a dungeon or a raid or even Savage/ Extreme and so on.

SE has always said that they want players to figure things out. They provide you the tools. Ready. Set. Go. The players build the community and the practices when it comes to in-game activities, certain etiquette so to speak. We'll never agree on this because, from your point of view, player-made rules are completely invalid as SE has never set a proper standard of how the game should be played.

I do believe in the opposite, as these are more wide spread and adapting to them is the best way to approach that content. In my years tanking and pulling wall to wall, the amount of issues I have had were minimal. As a healer I always encourage the tank to pull more, almost zero complaints from them, they just do it. If they think they can't, I ask them to give it a shot and see how it goes. Most of the time it's successful and they feel accomplished. When a DPS isn't AoEing, I ask them to do so, as "We can burn the meanies down faster!".

But like you said, and I already do that: I give the example with my actions. No one ever has complained, but I've been praised and some people surprised on how fast a dungeon can go with minimal to zero stumbling. And I find joy in that, I don't find it stressing. Since we're not 100% unique individuals, I'm sure many players feel the same and I can see it in this thread.

[Conquistadork]

What I think is that the tank does sets the pace, but how fast depends on a lot of different factors:

- Is the tank undergeared for the dungeon?
- Is the healer able to keep up with big pulls?
- The party consist on huge AOE dmg classes like BLM or SMN?

Those are the main factors that should tell a tank how fast and how big his pulls can be. If the party thinks that the tank MUST pull the entire dungeon every time... well, feel free to kick them and eat the waiting time for another tank while the tank can queue immediately for another dungeon.

[AnnaRosa]

SE has always said that they want players to figure things out. They provide you the tools. Ready. Set. Go. The players build the community and the practices when it comes to in-game activities, certain etiquette so to speak. We'll never agree on this because, from your point of view, player-made rules are completely invalid as SE has never set a proper standard of how the game should be played.

If the company doesn't set a standard officially and gives you freedom to build your own rotation even if its different from others why would you dictate to them that your rotation is better than theirs?

If SE is giving everyone a choice to play as they can why come to the forums yell, scream, dramatize over such?

Is that difficult to understand that different players have different standards and both can find themselves in the top of the optimal metrical solutions for each job and try to force their way on others may only confuse them more?

[SerLuke]

Ultimately, I know I won't change your mind and you'll definitely won't change anyone's mind here. While I enjoyed the debate for the most part, I see where certain mindsets come from. It seems like having standards is a crime in this game in the end.

EDIT: The standard nowdays is "gottagofast", with more than 8k instanced runs under my belt, with years of gaming and doing all kind of contents, I can tell you that, for the most part, it's how it works. Creating an alt also showed me that even at entry ilvl, in 70 dungeons, you can mass pull and burn things down efficiently.

Great community, btw.

Going by the post history of the person that made that thread they have multiple posts telling people they are bad and to “git gud” unironically making themselves guilty of the toxic behavior they are accusing of that might not be the best thread to choose to champion your point.

[Voltyblast]

As a tank myself, yes I am entitled...I mean the game rewards us because we lack in numbers, therefore I'm entitled to do how I see fitting because hey if you don't mind waiting a trillion hours for a tank, you have to deal with me for the next 20 minutes.

Jokes aside though, about the mass pulling, the game is so easy when it comes to dungeons that not mass pulling is kind of redundant: dungeons offer zero challenges and they're just there for giving you the daily grub of tomes and forget about it for the next 24 hours so of course I try to do fast: the faster I'm done, the sooner I can go do other things and play other games.

Now if a tank doesn't want to mass pull, I'm fine with that: I often do that too because I'm either not in the mood or sometimes I need to practice. I know right? tanks practicing a bit the new dungeon? Blasphemy!
I don't think complaining would make things work better and instead, there should be a mutual agreement or at least a discussion: sometimes as a healer, I get asked if they want to mass pull but I always reply with "sure I'll try", and nothing happens. Discussing things works wonders in these cases and as a tank I ALWAYS try to make things work because, let's be frank here, we're here for only 20 minutes and then go on our ways so I fail to see the point on fighting among each other because now the dungeon will be completed in 21 minutes instead.

However considering I got kicked for lesser things such as "not getting aggro within 0,00001 seconds", showing "how great" this community can be, I don't feel bad if I'm entitled or become harsh: in my world hate begets hate and if people don't want to settle down and have a discussion with me and just have me kicked because I decided to not pull a single mob or because I'm not worthy of their attention, well, then I just have to kick back and show that until the game fixes the tank's lacking population, you are going to deal with MY ways and that's final.

I didn't ask for these 20 minutes to turn into a full-blown war but they asked for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lilseph]

If the company doesn't set a standard officially and gives you freedom to build your own rotation even if its different from others why would you dictate to them that your rotation is better than theirs?

Because they deal the most damage.

If SE is giving everyone a choice to play as they can why come to the forums yell, scream, dramatize over such?

It's not dramatizing, scream or yell. People are voicing their opinions like you do, that's what discussion forums are for. That's why we have discussion forums divided by roles. I'm sure you do too have your standards, and by the look of it, you don't like them to be questioned.

Is that difficult to understand that different players have different standards and both can find themselves in the top of the optimal metrical solutions for each job and try to force their way on others may only confuse them more?

It's not hard to understand, but that doesn't mean I'm pleased with it. Again, it's not looking for the top performance, just an acceptable level when things can be cleared in a timely manner. Heck, you don't even know what my standards are! Why do you assume?

Going by the post history of the person that made that thread they have multiple posts telling people they are bad and to “git gud” unironically making themselves guilty of the toxic behavior they are accusing of that might not be the best thread to choose to champion your point.

There are a hundred of players supporting it though. While I don't advocate toxic behavior, I see it from both sides. The toxic elitist calling people bad an memeing and the toxic casual demonizing "good" gameplay and memeing about it.

[llnoopell]

I'll give you some real truth. Some of these other players don't raid and don't main all 3 roles like I do. Regardless of what anyone says. A tank can set pace but isn't anymore important than anyother role. Everyone is equal but tank and healers have alot to deal with in a raid. It's all about team work. If anyone tells you that all the roles are not equal then there stupid. Without enough dps you wipe without a healer everyone dies, without a tank everyone dies. It's all about equal team work.

[AnnaRosa]

Because they deal the most damage. .

Thats the point you may have players that give more damage than you and find your rotation not that optimal but average or bellow average and exclude you.
Since not all players submit their dps parse logs.

It's not dramatizing, scream or yell. People are voicing their opinions like you do, that's what discussion forums are for. That's why we have discussion forums divided by roles. I'm sure you do too have your standards, and by the look of it, you don't like them to be questioned.

Some did unfortunately also those that preach etiquette were the 1st to give the exact opposite example in that post you mentioned previously.

It's not hard to understand, but that doesn't mean I'm pleased with it. Again, it's not looking for the top performance, just an acceptable level when things can be cleared in a timely manner. Heck, you don't even know what my standards are! Why do you assume?

But again what is "acceptable level" and what conditions do you take in consideration to formulate such "acceptable" preformance for one role, if the company provides you the freedom to play as you can.

There are a hundred of players supporting it though. While I don't advocate toxic behavior, I see it from both sides. The toxic elitist calling people bad an memeing and the toxic casual demonizing "good" gameplay and memeing about it.

It is not about meming is about having a notion that players are different and the same way you judge one player for having a less good day and try to preform one task in game that doesn't end well the same will happen to you if something that unfortunately might not be under anyone control happen to you in the future, and you have the misfortune to pass over a similar situation.