Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

I still say toxic is subjective, as this thread shows people think asking people to do more is toxic, and people think not doing more is toxic. So is it toxic to queue up in dungeons knowing full well you don't care about how you play? Is it toxic to be a "you don't play my sub" type user? Or is it only toxic to be someone who kicks said user?


Someone earlier threw out the GM's response about kicking based on "differences in playstyle" being a perfectly good reason for kicking. So if a GM says so...

i havent seen the context of this response, but if a gm says something that can have no objective meaning, they are basically just telling people they will use their own judgement for any given situation.

[Gemina]

collective unconscious?

thats 1/90 seconds. Im assuming the third regen is the aoe one, you are talking about 150+140+40 =320 potency heal every 3 seconds. 190 on the pull after that. The only way thats adequate healing for pulls of 2+ groups of monsters consistently is if you and the tank are over geared for the instance.

I really think a lot of the people here have not played a dungeon at minimum ilevel in a really long time. Generally speaking there is a signifigant increase in ease for tanks and healers, with the combination of both being high making things signifigantly different in terms of what they are capable of.

not that its impossible with pretty good coordination, but its pretty risky to pull more than 2 groups at minimum ilevel consistently through the dungeon. Also, when dps is weaker, you are more likely to run low on resources as you go on further.

basically yall are used to being OP.

Pretty much this.

It doesn't take extensive search on the healer forums to come across a post where a healer is griping because a tank bites off more than he can chew. We have a similar thread there to the DF thread here to go and vent. Tanks who melt like butter in a hot oven are not a rare occurrence. No amount of regens, ogcds, or boosted gcds are going to save them or the group. They could have a low ilv, broken gear, not using proper CD rotations, or a combination of those.

Hell, this just happened to me the other night in Temple of the Fist - a level 70 dungeon. This DRK pulled wall to wall after the second boss, remained in DPS stance, and only used Living Dead. His Walking Dead status was almost instantly negated because I was cure bombing the crap out of him, and had no room for offensive gcds. I exhausted everything and was left with adlo and physick spam. He still dropped, and then the rest of us got picked off.

The thing is, I feel this actually justifies kicking the tank. Why? Because he was not able to perform the core part of his job, which involves maintaining aggro. As a lv70 DRK myself, I am fully aware of what his toolkit consists of, and always FT the tank in dungeons when they do pulls so I can keep a closer eye on them. Whether his gear was not up to date or broken doesn't even matter. By choosing to do a supplementary task that is involved with tanking i.e. large pulls, he compromised the entire party because he lost all aggro when he dropped. All of us ended up taking damage, and eventually got KO'd. Yet, many players in this thread and on these forums will complement such a tank for "trying" despite the wipe, even though full blown wipes are going to add a significant amount of time to the run. Far more than small pulls.

Ah well, I just continue to sit over here scratching my head.

[cicatriz313]

Well asking to do more can be toxic. It all depends on the delivery and they way you are ask. Asking itself is not toxic. Playing suboptimal is not toxic and If the dungeon clears for basic content honestly they succeeded. The base content is there for the average or lower average players so honestly that is where your expectations should be and you can control your behaviors from there. Also if a player starts doing the you don’t pay sub bit they are every ounce of toxic as others. Get through the dungeon blacklist and move on. We are talking about people kicking people in base content instead of getting through it and blacklisting. This isn’t an all or none. There is toxicity across the spectrum. AnOther option is create a premade if you have to be optimal at all times. That solves the entire issue. SE purposefully set the bar low for base content and you will get players that are suboptimal and they have every right to be in that content as it is the level designed for them.

I am really liking the idea of extreme level 4 man dungeons so those that want more optimal play can go there.

Well, I respect your opinion, and I hope people like you will be there to carry all the players who will get booted for "differences in playstyle" because if I see anyone mention "don't play my sub", they're getting a kick. I'm honestly under the impression that a tank who refuses to pull large when a group expresses confidence in the party's ability to do so, is the type of player who refuses to change and would say that type of stuff. I mean, of course the bar is set low to allow players to get through the game, it allows SE to keep raking in the dough, but if I have the tools to make MY experience better, and the rest of the party agrees, I don't think it's toxic to do so.

i havent seen the context of this response, but if a gm says something that can have no objective meaning, they are basically just telling people they will use their own judgement for any given situation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fore_the_last/
It reads to me that people have the right to kick people for other reasons than are listed and they don't constitute a breach of rules. Seems pretty clear and not a "judgement basis" to me, at least until we see otherwise from a GM response I'll be conducting myself according to what I've read and seen.

[Nonuel]

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

Don't worry, those people often end up punishing themselves as well! Like if they end up having to wait longer for a replacement than it would have taken if they'd just worked through the rest of the run anyway. So it can be a potential risk, and not worth it to kick someone in the end.

Personally, I just try to deal with someone who plays slowly or is a poor player in general. I don't agree with people who kick someone just for being a bit below their expectations. Maybe they're just looking out for themselves, or they're just being petty. Who knows? Their decision in the end, if I agree or not.

[Canadane]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

Possible to whom, the tank or the group? This is what is confuses me statements like the tank does set the pace, but it should be as quick as possible. Who will be the judge that determines what the group is capable of? The tank? Or the group that is trying to reassure the tank that they will be fine and the group can handle it?

Now that the game is down and I have time between my endless light pagos farming, I can shed some lig...knowledge on what I meant. My thoughts here might be a bit fragmented but I hope I express my feelings appropriately.

From the tank perspective, you're pulling mobs, you'll be setting the pace. However, all jobs that are up to date on ilvl are way more powerful than they have every right to be in dungeons. Some dungeons don't require a healer at all. Tanks can be unstoppable walls if played correctly. And that's the key, playing the job correctly.

You find more timid players. Be they inexperienced, or just nervous about some unknown responsibility they think they must live up to. You find this generally with tanks or healers (I can rant about the downfall of DPS too but that's probably better saved for a different topic). And these players are unaware at how powerful SE has made our jobs, or how trivial dungeons actually are. These days healers don't spend GCDs on healing. Tanks don't need to cycle through every single one of their buffs. Sac pulls are a thing of the past as it's better to just kill than it is raise.

Wall to wall pulling is very easy and not hard to complete in the slightest. However, there's been a growing concern that the context of such advice is lost as I suppose it's taken as written. This does not apply to levelling dungeons.
Dungeons that aren't at level cap (50, 60, 70, or soon to be 80) do not have minimum ilvl requirements. Meaning you won't know how undergeared someone will be. For these runs, checking the gear is one step, but you also must understand that even with max gear, it isn't always possible to go wall to wall. Many yes, some become very difficult mind you. An experienced tank who's been though these will already know what the comfortable pull will be and do that.

Now aside from all that, you have people that want to stop and smell the flowers. Admire the fine craftsmanship of the cave wall. Read every flavour text. I'm personally fine with people doing that last one, lore is lore. But when you've been doing the same thing for 8+ years and you have other things to tend to, you want to get this place over with as fast as possible. Having one person stop is generally going to be inconveniencing three others. The default speed for dungeons is "gofast" speed and if slowdowns are required for some reason or another, disconnection, WHM is actually a CNJ and forgot their stone, or someones house is burning down, call them as you see them.

From a non-tank perspective, if a tank is going slow 'just because' or for some other non-reason and they refuse to pick up the pace, I am more than happy to leave, even as a DPS. I have a plethora of things to do that aren't in Duty Finder, a half hour of my time is much more productive doing something that isn't going to be 25 minutes (or more!) in a single dungeon. That being said, I also don't mind pulling ahead. If they tank won't do their job, I'll do it. I've done dungeons tankless before. As a tank, I actually love when a competent DPS pulls ahead, if their sprint is up first, or on dungeons where wall to wall isn't possible. If it means keeping up enochian or greased lightning, or BotD, etc, then I'm all for it. It just means the next pull will die faster because the DPS now doesn't need to ramp up and can instead start out full power.

So again, I apologize over some fragmented ranting here, but hopefully you can understand the general mindset people will have, and the general advice that covers 90% of situations you'll be in, and how to best take in the other 10% of places where it doesn't apply.

[Crystal_Raven]

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

The majority of people that get kicked are BELOW the average.

Nothing to do with meta or being average, it's when you are waaay below the average when we have a problem.

[Feidam]

Well, I respect your opinion, and I hope people like you will be there to carry all the players who will get booted for "differences in playstyle" because if I see anyone mention "don't play my sub", they're getting a kick. I'm honestly under the impression that a tank who refuses to pull large when a group expresses confidence in the party's ability to do so, is the type of player who refuses to change and would say that type of stuff. I mean, of course the bar is set low to allow players to get through the game, it allows SE to keep raking in the dough, but if I have the tools to make MY experience better, and the rest of the party agrees, I don't think it's toxic to do so.


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fore_the_last/
It reads to me that people have the right to kick people for other reasons than are listed and they don't constitute a breach of rules. Seems pretty clear and not a "judgement basis" to me, at least until we see otherwise from a GM response I'll be conducting myself according to what I've read and seen.

If you are kicking after the person gets nasty then kick way. People need to own their own behavior. Toxic is toxic. However, assuming someone is awful because they don’t want to large pull is your choice but they could have legit reasons why the can’t large pull or don’t want to besides being bad.
As far as the gm response which is from a couple of years ago that could not be the case anymore after the change in TOS which occurred this past Feb. To my knowledge there has not been a confirmation since the rule change.

[Physic]

Well, I respect your opinion, and I hope people like you will be there to carry all the players who will get booted for "differences in playstyle" because if I see anyone mention "don't play my sub", they're getting a kick. I'm honestly under the impression that a tank who refuses to pull large when a group expresses confidence in the party's ability to do so, is the type of player who refuses to change and would say that type of stuff. I mean, of course the bar is set low to allow players to get through the game, it allows SE to keep raking in the dough, but if I have the tools to make MY experience better, and the rest of the party agrees, I don't think it's toxic to do so.


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fore_the_last/
It reads to me that people have the right to kick people for other reasons than are listed and they don't constitute a breach of rules. Seems pretty clear and not a "judgement basis" to me, at least until we see otherwise from a GM response I'll be conducting myself according to what I've read and seen.

that shows no context, the message is clearly a part of a longer conversation. We have no information on what happened, or why they kicked them. The Gm is basically saying that they will allow kicks that are outside of the 4 reasons stated, if they feel like it, based on their judgement.


As i said, the gm is basically saying we looked at our case, and regardless of the letter of the law, we find no wrong done. They are not saying, as everybody else is with hyperbole, that they will allow anything.


Regardless, this was never a conversation about whether you have the physical ability to initiate a kick, it has always been about what are legitimate acceptable reasons for kicking people.


I can say just going by whatever SE enforces via gm moderation, almost all of the tos, and most norms would be considered to not apply. How many botters, griefers, exploiters, harassers etc have never seen an action taken against them? Does that mean SE is cool with it? Does that mean the community is? Does that mean the basic social behavior norms are?

The majority of people that get kicked are BELOW the average.

Nothing to do with meta or being average, it's when you are waaay below the average when we have a problem.

you shouldnt be kicking people for being below average, by definition 49% of people are below average, i can guarantee you that SE does not want 49% of the population to be kicked from dungeons.


The only reason SE is not going to make a big deal about kicks, is that it would be hard to enforce, and by and large, its not a problem. Most people actually dont kick players for being below average. I have played with many bad players, and have sometimes been the bad player myself. Most kicks i have seen are based on AFK/offline. And most of the skill based kicks were actually more about clashes of ego rather than any objective person sucking more than the other. And those were super rare, and they didnt go anywhere, because i usually play with friends, or dont vote to kick some one based on that premise.



leaving is way more likely than kicking, and leaving though annoying at times is definitely fair to all involved.

[cicatriz313]

If you are kicking after the person gets nasty then kick way. People need to own their own behavior. Toxic is toxic. However, assuming someone is awful because they don’t want to large pull is your choice but they could have legit reasons why the can’t large pull or don’t want to besides being bad.
As far as the gm response which is from a couple of years ago that could not be the case anymore after the change in TOS which occurred this past Feb. To my knowledge there has not been a confirmation since the rule change.

Yeah, that's why I said I'll conduct myself until I see otherwise. I'm sure someone will post a "I got banned for booting someone!" post if it happens, everyone likes to complain when they get banned.

that shows no context, the message is clearly a part of a longer conversation. We have no information on what happened, or why they kicked them. The Gm is basically saying that they will allow kicks that are outside of the 4 reasons stated, if they feel like it, based on their judgement.

As i said, the gm is basically saying we looked at our case, and regardless of the letter of the law, we find no wrong done. They are not saying, as everybody else is with hyperbole, that they will allow anything.

I can say just going by whatever SE enforces via gm moderation, almost all of the tos, and most norms would be considered to not apply. How many botters, griefers, exploiters, harassers etc have never seen an action taken against them? Does that mean SE is cool with it? Does that mean the community is? Does that mean the basic social behavior norms are?

Well considering all it says is it has to be obstructing gameplay, and just kicking isn't that, I would rather go with a vague reason than not do something for absolutely no reason. There's a difference between a GM NOT saying anything about a case and saying the opposite of what you're saying. And they're specifically stating "differences in playstyles" is a valid reason, nothing about up to judgement, and pulling small pulls vs large pulls is definitely a difference in playstyles. Again, we will see if GMs say anything different now that the TOS changed, but I haven't seen anything yet.

[Lilseph]

95% faster is an overstatement. a signifigant portion of most dungeon time is bosses and travel time. Also some dungeons dont allow super large pulls due to stops.

and different jobs vary in the strength and effeciency of thier aoes. Also consider gear/experience, 1 or two wipes can cost 2-3 minutes depending where the wipes occur. a dps death signifigantly reduces dps during weakness and mana effeciency.

i'd say generally you are looking at 20-50% faster, with a possibility of being slower depending how many times it goes wrong.

Most drama tends to occur at wipes though, so id say wipes gives you a 30% chance of player driven drama. slow pulling gives you 5% chance of drama.

I'm guessing the slower players prefer a safer pace with less chance of people yelling at them or each other. Essentially they are risk averse types

Like Cicatriz clarified, I meant the 95% of the dungeons.

Also playing at an accepted level of competency isn't hyper-optimizing. Stop exaggerating just to create a counter-argument. If you knew what we were talking about, you'd understand that it doesn't require that much effort to do so. Almost everyone here stated that they don't want savage or high percentile level of competence so, please, knock it off with that nonsense.

I'll echo what others have said: If they want to relax, they have better options around. I'll refer to my previous point: Like it or not, the majority tends to dictate how the run should go. Kicking for difference of playstyle was a valid option and was a response given by a GM back then. If that changed because of the ToS update, the only way to know it is to ask a GM once again.

Ultimately, I know I won't change your mind and you'll definitely won't change anyone's mind here. While I enjoyed the debate for the most part, I see where certain mindsets come from. It seems like having standards is a crime in this game in the end.

EDIT: The standard nowdays is "gottagofast", with more than 8k instanced runs under my belt, with years of gaming and doing all kind of contents, I can tell you that, for the most part, it's how it works. Creating an alt also showed me that even at entry ilvl, in 70 dungeons, you can mass pull and burn things down efficiently.

Great community, btw.