Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Feidam]

The weird thing is large pulls don’t necessarily speed up the dungeon. While i do agree that large pulls can help a tank learn proper cooldown usage tank anxiety is a problem that some folks have as well.

[WaterShield]

The weird thing is large pulls don’t necessarily speed up the dungeon. While i do agree that large pulls can help a tank learn proper cooldown usage tank anxiety is a problem that some folks have as well.

Objectively false. Aoe > single target... you literally surpass the damage you would be doing with smaller pulls... more damage faster = things die faster.... = dungeon done sooner.

[Feidam]

Objectively false. Aoe > single target... you literally surpass the damage you would be doing with smaller pulls... more damage faster = things die faster.... = dungeon done sooner.

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

[cicatriz313]

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

[Kaedan]

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

[Hash_Browns]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

[Physic]

I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

collective unconscious?

thats 1/90 seconds. Im assuming the third regen is the aoe one, you are talking about 150+140+40 =320 potency heal every 3 seconds. 190 on the pull after that. The only way thats adequate healing for pulls of 2+ groups of monsters consistently is if you and the tank are over geared for the instance.

I really think a lot of the people here have not played a dungeon at minimum ilevel in a really long time. Generally speaking there is a signifigant increase in ease for tanks and healers, with the combination of both being high making things signifigantly different in terms of what they are capable of.

not that its impossible with pretty good coordination, but its pretty risky to pull more than 2 groups at minimum ilevel consistently through the dungeon. Also, when dps is weaker, you are more likely to run low on resources as you go on further.

basically yall are used to being OP.

[cicatriz313]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

I mean what you say can be said the same of single pulling. Like, bad players will be bad in large groups or small groups so that's a silly argument. IF players can use aoe in a general sense, it'll be more damage to have large groups, doesn't even matter if they're hitting all the mobs or not as long as they're hitting MORE than the single group. Of course tanks have to use cooldowns and healers have to heal, that's part of playing the game. If anything tanking is easier in a large group aoe situation because it just becomes using your aoe skills instead of cycling through and single targetting. Healing is mind dead easy no matter what you're doing, and in a large group situation the ogcd damage you have does more damage per use.

Edit: also literally every job has good aoe these days. Not sure why you keep focusing on that point. We aren't talking about leveling dungeons here.

[Lilseph]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

That's a lot of IFs but none of these are super hard to accomplish.

-Mobs grouped well? Most of the cases they are. VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS REALLY, like the 2 worms at the end of The Burn, they are annoying. If you know on which mob you could apply your AoE, you'll target most if not all of them.

-DPS paying attention? Few instances where certain DPS have linear or conal AoE can be an issue, but even so, there's a gain even if you miss few of them. Refer to "IF" number 3.

-If the DPS have good AoE? ALL DPS have decent AoE. Except for SMN (tri-disaster outside of dreadwyrm trance), most of them have 100 to 110 potency AoE attacks, which on 3+ targets, it adds up considerably. Imagine having 440 potency per GCD and that's only hitting 4 targets. That's a lot of a damage compared to your usual rotation.

-If there aren't many ground effects? Few instances as well, we can mention the exceptions, but it doesn't mean all the cases are like that. Even so, both melees and ranged are quite mobile, they can dodge as they AoE. Ranged magical DPS are somewhat safer or have fast casts/DoTs that would make up for it.

-If tank stuff? I don't think there's any complexity here. 1 button for a cooldown, 1 button for... an AoE rotation? Overpower, Flash or Decimate/Steel Cyclone, DA abbysal drain/salted earth spam barely require a strict rotation. Cooldowns are used from the biggest to the smallest. It's not rocket science.

-If healer stuff? Playing healer myself, healing is braindead in dungeons. SCH? Blow your fairie's regen, tether them and put excog on them: Go ham. WHM? Slap regens on them: Go ham. AST? Regens or shields: Go ham. They also have offgcds to use in between their DPS spam and "oh sh-" heals.

You are making it sound like the planets must be aligned for that to happen, which it's completely untrue. Most of them require the bare minimum knowledge of your job to pull it off.

[Ilan]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Lets face it how it is: It doesn't matter how you pull if your party sucks, it will take forever one way or the other. You made up examples with the worst possible players to justify small pulls.