Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Granyala]

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands.

Pretty much. I advise the tank that I am capable of healing big pulls but ultimately I don't put pressure on him because I'm working under the assumption that tanks do not pull small w/o there being good reasons for it. It is very rare to get a tank that doesn't pull wall to wall and most of the time it's an easily spotted newbie.

[Fyce]

Tanks do have greater entitlement. But consider your examples. If a DPS doesn't AoE, the party can still make up the DPS. If the tank can't handle big pulls, knows they can't handle big pulls, and then gets pressured into doing them and fails, then the party will go up one side the tank and down the other. They will get called a shit tank. There is a much greater stress on the tank to perform well and mistakes that cause wipes are not looked on fondly.

So yes, tanks do have greater entitlement, and it's justified.

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands. It's a real person behind that toon. I show respect by acknowledging they know their limits. I show willingness to work within those limits. It's called a party for a reason. We're all intended to work together as a team.

I hope you understand that the only things you have to do in order to make a big pull are to run forward and press Flash/Overpower/Unleash a few times. That's it. That's all it takes. Even using cooldowns isn't mandatory as the healer should be able to somewhat adjust. The healer is "handling the pull", by the way, not the tank. Once enmity is secured, the tank doesn't have to do much except pray that their healer can more HPS than the incoming damage. You even said that you -as a healer- were letting your tank know if they could pull more. If the tanks were actually the ones fully in control of how to handle big pulls, you wouldn't be able to say that.

Besides, I really don't see what kind of mistakes someone could do after that much playtime. And if they do somehow make some really, really weird mistakes that they shouldn't be doing at level 70, then they really aren't entitled to anything except getting told to get back at the Hall of the Novice. A tank cannot cause a wipe except if they are extremely bad, which isn't an excuse, and even less a reason to give them priviledge (don't reward mediocrity). And I'm obviously not talking about exceptions (ie. new to the dungeon, having a disability, whatever).

Whatever the case, stop making big pulls look like some kind of 200 IQ gameplay that would make tanks deserve to be treated differently from a healer or a DPS. We could really benefit from that misconception going away. Tanking is easy. A big pull can be done by literally pressing only two buttons: forward and AoE enmity. Sorry but this is not enough to give them a "greater entitlement". It's far from being justified. And this is coming from a WAR main.

We often see threads of people talking about tank anxiety, when there is no reason to be worried. And you are not helping here.

Edit: Just to be clear, this post was written within the context of max level dungeons (50/60/70) where gear completly obliterates everything.

[TaleraRistain]

You even said that you -as a healer- were letting your tank know if they could pull more. If the tanks were actually the ones fully in control of how to handle big pulls, you wouldn't be able to say that.

You're completely wrong. Telling someone the option is there is not the same as making the decision for them. I let the tank know that I think we're handling current pulls well and I'm fine with it if they feel comfortable doing big pulls. And that I'm okay as well if they want to stay with the current size. It's still completely up to the tank to execute the big pull, handle any mitigation, and make sure to control the enmity on everything they grab. I just keep their health bar high enough to do it.

You see those threads about tank anxiety because groups don't care if big pulls stress the tank out. And just because YOU might find it easy doesn't mean everyone does. I've had plenty of tanks thank me for my consideration of their comfort levels and most often do try to big pulls when the pressure is off. Some still find they have issues, so we go back to small pulls.

I'm a good healer and I find healing easy but I can have empathy toward those who aren't as good at it. Sounds like you could stand to do that for your fellow tanks instead of just writing off their feelings and concerns because you don't experience it yourself.

[Aurelius2625]

All who are calling on tanks to do "what the party wants" have forfeited every right to be salty, bitch and moan when the tank dies because you wanted to force them to do what YOU wanted, rather than what THEY were comfortable with. Literally NEVER insult them, get mad, yell at them, or do anything toxic at all. You wanted that big pull, you OWN it for demanding it. Full stop.

There. That's some of that "taking responsibility" stuff that I hear about a lot. Take responsibility for demanding something that might go wrong. Do that, and at least you'll have the stones to own up to a bad call for when things go south.

If someone can do that, then I can accept them enforcing their playstyle enough to literally kick someone playing the game that has done NOTHING wrong... but you know... play the game?

Also, never make a mistake, or underperform. You know, if you're a "bad healer" and can't "play your job at max level" you shouldn't heal. You also shouldn't DPS if your dps is bad, cus you know... max level. Git gud scrub. You have NO RIGHT to be in MY party by being a "bad player". Don't ever pick up a new job, either. Or use a jump potion. How DARE you infringe in my right to speed kills and never wiping. You're max level, no excuses, slacker.



I hope that all of you calling for tanks to be "good" get served a nice taste of your own medicine. We're all mortals, here. Mercy and patience are free gifts that you can give without limit. No one literally logs on and says, "Today, I want to be mediocre, or even worse. Gee I hope I never get better and stay the same, and never learn to do more!"

I just don't understand how someone could be so cruel and vicious to another living, breathing human being to punish them for trying to play a game that they paid for, when it's not even EXTREME or SAVAGE we're talking about here. It's a dungeon. Just LEAVE and take the penalty if someone's playing offends you so much.

[WaterShield]

All who are calling on tanks to do "what the party wants" have forfeited every right to be salty, bitch and moan when the tank dies because you wanted to force them to do what YOU wanted, rather than what THEY were comfortable with. Literally NEVER insult them, get mad, yell at them, or do anything toxic at all. You wanted that big pull, you OWN it for demanding it. Full stop.

There. That's some of that "taking responsibility" stuff that I hear about a lot. Take responsibility for demanding something that might go wrong. Do that, and at least you'll have the stones to own up to a bad call for when things go south.

If someone can do that, then I can accept them enforcing their playstyle enough to literally kick someone playing the game that has done NOTHING wrong... but you know... play the game?

Also, never make a mistake, or underperform. You know, if you're a "bad healer" and can't "play your job at max level" you shouldn't heal. You also shouldn't DPS if your dps is bad, cus you know... max level. Git gud scrub. You have NO RIGHT to be in MY party by being a "bad player". Don't ever pick up a new job, either. Or use a jump potion. How DARE you infringe in my right to speed kills and never wiping. You're max level, no excuses, slacker.



I hope that all of you calling for tanks to be "good" get served a nice taste of your own medicine. We're all mortals, here. Mercy and patience are free gifts that you can give without limit. No one literally logs on and says, "Today, I want to be mediocre, or even worse. Gee I hope I never get better and stay the same, and never learn to do more!"

I just don't understand how someone could be so cruel and vicious to another living, breathing human being to punish them for trying to play a game that they paid for, when it's not even EXTREME or SAVAGE we're talking about here. It's a dungeon. Just LEAVE and take the penalty if someone's playing offends you so much.

Will they also take responsibility for being unable to play their class at a minimum acceptable level at endgame? Deciding to kick someone is not vicious or cruel. Have you never had a moment as a child where other children didn't want to play with you? Guess what, you learn from it and grow as a person, or you continue to be someone that alienates people. Alternatively, they just don't want you around no matter what you do, but at that point you are better off for not being around them.

I don't understand this narrative where the group is obligated to keep someone around, who is sucking their enjoyment out of the activity at hand. That's not how any activity in life works.

As stated earlier but a bit more plainly. When I do not kick someone for under performing that badly I'm not being nice, I'm tolerating them and silently getting very upset with them. If things come to a head and the rest of the group say they want to kick them, I don't have to think twice about clicking that button.

[Physic]

Will they also take responsibility for being unable to play their class at a minimum acceptable level at endgame? Deciding to kick someone is not vicious or cruel. Have you never had a moment as a child where other children didn't want to play with you? Guess what, you learn from it and grow as a person, or you continue to be someone that alienates people. Alternatively, they just don't want you around no matter what you do, but at that point you are better off for not being around them.

I don't understand this narrative where the group is obligated to keep someone around, who is sucking their enjoyment out of the activity at hand. That's not how any activity in life works.

As stated earlier but a bit more plainly. When I do not kick someone for under performing that badly I'm not being nice, I'm tolerating them and silently getting very upset with them. If things come to a head and the rest of the group say they want to kick them, I don't have to think twice about clicking that button.

the difference is, when others dont want to play with you, you dont have to wait 10-25 minutes to audition for the next audition.

if no one lost any progress, kicking wouldnt be a big deal.

Also, if people kicked everyone they thought sucked, the dungeon duty finder couldnt do its job, which is to create a means for any player to complete content they need to progress.

Ex trials, Savage, even raids, those are meant to be optional content. Where if you get kicked, you can still progress. Dungeons are the baseline progression. Blocking people from completing it would destroy the game.

[WaterShield]

the difference is, when others dont want to play with you, you dont have to wait 10-25 minutes to audition for the next audition.

if no one lost any progress, kicking wouldnt be a big deal.

Also, if people kicked everyone they thought sucked, the dungeon duty finder couldnt do its job, which is to create a means for any player to complete content they need to progress.

Ex trials, Savage, even raids, those are meant to be optional content. Where if you get kicked, you can still progress. Dungeons are the baseline progression. Blocking people from completing it would destroy the game.

If a tank is kicked they can queue back in less than 3-5 minutes... wooo

[Vnolan]

I hope that all of you calling for tanks to be "good" get served a nice taste of your own medicine.

What you think has been said in this thread: Tanks need to be using the best food, they need to be popping the best potions on cooldown, they need to switch stances once they get aggro on mass pulls, they need to pull and stay in DPS stance on bosses and they need to know the optimum methods for dealing with every encounter in every dungeon

What was actually said: Tanks should use AoE hate on more than one pack of mobs if the situation permits it

You also shouldn't DPS if your dps is bad, cus you know... max level.

This but without the sarcasm. If a max level DPS is going to only use one combo or no DoTs, they might as well switch to a role that speeds up queues.

I asked you to provide sources that specifically states that the vote dismiss feature is used to remove a member from the group that does not perform to the standards of the group.

It can be used for that. You think you have to stick with a lvl 70 BLM that only uses ice spells?

I also asked you to provide a source that specifically states that jobs are required to do more in party play other than what I have provided in my source, i.e. large pulls, healers DPSing.

It's only required when the rest of the party desires it or if you have common decency.

Another thing is SE is skating on pretty thin ice here, but not with group members choosing to kick players; it's actually with those being kicked. Someone with the right lawyer and enough money could take SE to court for a failure to enforce rules and policies resulting in a non-compliance with their ToS.

lol

the devs could very much ban every single one of those players that voted to kick that tank if they investigated the matter.

They could only ban them because they're SE and FFXIV is their product. They could not ban them by citing any rules. They issued an open warning to players buying fraudulent codes instead of issuing bans. They aren't going to come out of nowhere and ban players that were operating within the rules.

It's a player I will very likely not ever see again, ever.

Can't imagine why you would be paired with them in the first place. Could it be others had the same mindset?

My time, and energy has more important places to be allocated.

Apparently not if you don't care how long a duty takes.

[Physic]

What you think has been said in this thread: Tanks need to be using the best food, they need to be popping the best potions on cooldown, they need to switch stances once they get aggro on mass pulls, they need to pull and stay in DPS stance on bosses and they need to know the optimum methods for dealing with every encounter in every dungeon

What was actually said: Tanks should use AoE hate on more than one pack of mobs if the situation permits it


This but without the sarcasm. If a max level DPS is going to only use one combo or no DoTs, they might as well switch to a role that speeds up queues.


It can be used for that. You think you have to stick with a lvl 70 BLM that only uses ice spells?


It's only required when the rest of the party desires it or if you have common decency.


lol


They could only ban them because they're SE and FFXIV is their product. They could not ban them by citing any rules. They issued an open warning to players buying fraudulent codes instead of issuing bans. They aren't going to come out of nowhere and ban players that were operating within the rules.


Can't imagine why you would be paired with them in the first place. Could it be others had the same mindset?


Apparently not if you don't care how long a duty takes.

what is being said is not tanks should pull more mobs if they can.

What is being said is 2 people should decide how the tank should pull, and kick him if they dont like his choice.

note that vote kick is not actually democratic, because 2/4 players make the decision. If half the party wants slow pulls and half want fast pulls, they can kick. IE, if tank and healer want slow, 2 dps can still kick.

[Gemina]

It can be used for that. You think you have to stick with a lvl 70 BLM that only uses ice spells?

I don't. Want to know why? Because they are violating what is required of them according to this:

DPS
Classes: Pugilist, Lancer, Rogue, Archer, Thaumaturge, Arcanist
Jobs: Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, Bard, Machinist, Black Mage, Summoner, Red Mage
These classes and jobs utilize various offensive abilities to dispatch enemies as quickly as possible.

It's only required when the rest of the party desires it or if you have common decency.

Help me out here. I reflect the same to you as I have Mavrias, and to provide a source that explicitly states that the requirements of any given player is dictated by their group. Tell you what though, since I lack to confidence for you to do so. I will actually refer to the ToS that requires players to be courteous to each other. Performing to the best of your ability is a courtesy to the party, and all players should be doing it. But how do we determine that a tank is capable of more than the bare minimum? This isn't a sarcastic or rhetorical question.

lol

I love these responses!

They could only ban them because they're SE and FFXIV is their product. They could not ban them by citing any rules. They issued an open warning to players buying fraudulent codes instead of issuing bans. They aren't going to come out of nowhere and ban players that were operating within the rules.

SE's reluctance to take action by no means is indicative that players are operating within the rules. RMT anyone? Profanity in FC/Linkshell/Shout chat? Ice Mages? Like you brought up earlier.

Can't imagine why you would be paired with them in the first place. Could it be others had the same mindset?

Ahh, there it is. The personal attack, and assuming I have the same mindset as those getting kicked. Hmmm. I wonder why I've never been kicked from any group I've been in... in the three years I've been playing this game?

Apparently not if you don't care how long a duty takes.

I do care how long a duty takes. I just don't care if it takes 2-3 minutes longer than a speed run. I have bigger fish to fry, and far greater things to worry about. However, life must be pretty freakin awesome if I can devote my time and energy to griping about trivial matters.