Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

Adapting to the weaker link is nothing else but a carry for that person. It won´t help the person learn for the future, it won´t tell the person that there is maybe something wrong with the rotation, or how they do the job.
We are talking about lvl 70 dungeon here. Expert roulett, where you already did at least 7 lvl 70 dungeons. The standart for lvl 70 dungeons are big pulls for a reason = big pulls in lvl 50/50/60 dungeons are easy, even for casuals.



Those kicks should happen more often.
Then we wouldn´t have the problem for lvl 70 players not knowing there jobs at all.


The "Tank sets the pace" argument is the reason we have quite a few Tanks with "god complex" thinking they are irreplaceable and can do whatever they want in a group with 3 or 7 other players.

its not expert roulette for everyone in the party. Roulette puts people who need the dungeon for main story/quests/gear with people who click roulette. Everyone noted that pulling everything is not always good while leveling, which is the vast majority of how a newer player would have done dungeons. A lot of the people talking about how large pulls are the best way to do things have not been undergeared/underexperienced for years. They also ignore that some players are just more risk averse than others. Some tanks view a wipe as the worst result.

[MStowastiqVahlshdeh]

Tank may set the pace, but the healer has to agree to it, or that pace is not possible, no matter how fast or slow. The tank cannot set the pace alone when dependent on efficient heals to do so. The dps cannot go forward either, if the healer cannot heal at the pace the tank sets up.

I think its all good to set a pace but a tank should always make sure his/her healer is able and comfortable with the chosen pace first.

The most comfortable situation I have experienced is at the beginning of the duty, when the tank informs the party and healers that he/she wishes to do big pulls. If the healer is not okay with this, the tank usually continues on with smaller pulls and the duty goes smoothly.

The alternatives:

A tank who runs into duty and assumes that big pulls are okay when they are not or perhaps the healer was not prepared for big pulls, the duty wipes and people begin getting frustrated because they have to start over. This inevitably spends more of the time that the big pull tank wanted to save in the first place.

Vote replacing the healer: Again, this spends more time. The time taken to vote dismiss. The time taken to realize that the healer cannot sustain big pulls, which probably means a wipe happened [see above example]. And finally the time it takes to re-recruit a new healer for the duty. This also spends more of the time that the tank wanted to save by doing big pulls in the first place.

One other thing, the tank also needs to be okay with and capable of big pulls before engaging them. No matter how great the healer is, the goal of quick efficient duty via big pulls would be contradicted by having to restart because the tank cant handle large pulls.

So in my experience, its always best for the tank to first make sure that the healer can handle the pace that he/she wishes to set.

[Awha]

I have played many mmos and have always tanked in each of them and have never heard of tank anxiety before. I have heard of anxiety but is tank entitlement so prevalent in this game they get their very own version of anxiety that the group has to conform to? I suffer from anxiety and that is my problem maybe to a degree also my support systems problem. Random strangers should not be expected to be mindful of mu anxiety issues, it is something I have to over come not something others inherently have to accept they can choose to buy by no means should I expect it. I think overall that is my issue and this thread opened by eyes to it. FFXIV community imo does more harm then good when people promote this notion that the baseline should be to adjust to the minority.

[Physic]

I have played many mmos and have always tanked in each of them and have never heard of tank anxiety before. I have heard of anxiety but is tank entitlement so prevalent in this game they get their very own version of anxiety that the group has to conform to? I suffer from anxiety and that is my problem maybe to a degree also my support systems problem. Random strangers should not be expected to be mindful of mu anxiety issues, it is something I have to over come not something others inherently have to accept they can choose to buy by no means should I expect it. I think overall that is my issue and this thread opened by eyes to it. FFXIV community imo does more harm then good when people promote this notion that the baseline should be to adjust to the minority.

tank anxiety is just a term people came up with to describe the pressure a tank has, ultimately being responsible for a lot of what happens. Some tanks dont like tanking large groups because they would rather avoid a wipe. Some dont like the idea of even losing hate for a moment.


As to doing more harm than good, i promise you, you are wrong. If everyone kicked people they thought were playing poorly most people would no longer use duty finder. The only reason that kick exists, is because most people dont use it that way.

even though you feel like getting kicked is not a big deal, for most players it is the absolute worst outcome from using the duty finder.

You have to understand the main purpose of dungeon duty finder is for everyone to be able to complete content. It requires a high population of people using it to be effective. If random players, even at low skill cannot complete basic dungeons, they have no reason to play the game. It is not in SE best interest to have 40% of the population have no way to ddo daily dungeons, or be afraid to enter duty finder in fear of being kicked.

This is magnified for tanks, because the honest truth is, an inexperienced undergeared tank will be most visible. most people wont notice what a dps is doing, but getting hit? dying? pretty obvious. This part of why the tank is mostly the one that sets the pace, because he bears the real responsibility for deaths.


You feel like the goal of people in dungeon duty finder should be to improve the skills of the population. You are incorrect. The main purpose is so that people can progress. People dont sign up for the duty finder to get lessons on their job, or to pass tests for their role. That, for some is a secondary goal, but the first goal is to succeed. If people kick others based on their subjective rating of other players, chance of success when queue up will decrease, and people will no longer do it.

If everyone took your stance, SE would disable kicking. In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen. Either that or people stop randomly grouping.

[Mavrias]

tank anxiety is just a term people came up with to describe the pressure a tank has, ultimately being responsible for a lot of what happens. Some tanks dont like tanking large groups because they would rather avoid a wipe. Some dont like the idea of even losing hate for a moment.


As to doing more harm than good, i promise you, you are wrong. If everyone kicked people they thought were playing poorly most people would no longer use duty finder. The only reason that kick exists, is because most people dont use it that way.

even though you feel like getting kicked is not a big deal, for most players it is the absolute worst outcome from using the duty finder.

You have to understand the main purpose of dungeon duty finder is for everyone to be able to complete content. It requires a high population of people using it to be effective. If random players, even at low skill cannot complete basic dungeons, they have no reason to play the game. It is not in SE best interest to have 40% of the population have no way to ddo daily dungeons, or be afraid to enter duty finder in fear of being kicked.

This is magnified for tanks, because the honest truth is, an inexperienced undergeared tank will be most visible. most people wont notice what a dps is doing, but getting hit? dying? pretty obvious. This part of why the tank is mostly the one that sets the pace, because he bears the real responsibility for deaths.


You feel like the goal of people in dungeon duty finder should be to improve the skills of the population. You are incorrect. The main purpose is so that people can progress. People dont sign up for the duty finder to get lessons on their job, or to pass tests for their role. That, for some is a secondary goal, but the first goal is to succeed. If people kick others based on their subjective rating of other players, chance of success when queue up will decrease, and people will no longer do it.

If everyone took your stance, SE would disable kicking. In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen. Either that or people stop randomly grouping.

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

i have literally never seen a company disable kicking as a result of people using the feature, thats anecdotal at best.

[Physic]

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

i have literally never seen a company disable kicking as a result of people using the feature, thats anecdotal at best.

hmm, thought it was aion, or phantasy star universe but i cant find anything, so maybe i'm wrong

[Gemina]

the easy cure for this "tanxiety" is to not tank or at least dont tank for randoms if it causes you so much stress.

if you dont want others to judge your performance, playstyle, etc, you probably shouldnt be playing a multiplayer game.

I can just as easily say that the easiest way for not dealing with random players and those with anxiety is to queue up with a premade.

Some jobs that players are a fan of, and have been a fan of for years just happen to fall into a role they are not comfortable playing. DRK is a great example of this. Before it's implementation, a lot of players wanted it to be DPS, but it ended up being a tank. A lot of players would prefer GUN to be DPS as well, and it's going to be a tank. I am most comfortable playing a healer and really wanted DNC to be the fourth; it's going to be a DPS, which is what I am the most uncomfortable playing.

Now before you go off telling me to use premades, you should know that I usually do. Especially if my anxiety is particularly high as it often is when doing duties for the first time, or being there for the first time as a particular role. So I indeed do practice what I preach, and I'm not a hypocrite. However, I can't expect my FC to always be there to hold my hand. There are going to be times where I have to queue up alone. During this time, I have as much right to use the DF as anyone else.

I will agree that if you don't want to be judged, any kind of social activity is probably not for you. But it is also unhealthy. The "cure" for tanxiety is not to stay away from it; the cure is to get out there and do it; grab it by the horns and own it instead of letting it own you.

All of this is really neither here are there though, because the DF is all about grouping up with random players, with random skill levels, and with a myriad of personalities and mentalities. There's no avoiding it so the burden truly is on the person whose expectations are high, and not the one of lower skill, anxiety, laziness or whatever the hell you want to call it. The players who choose and can accept that they take what they can get are the ones that should be using DF. The kick feature is not meant to be a arbitrary grading system, but it is used as such because players can get away with it.

[Mavrias]

I can just as easily say that the easiest way for not dealing with random players and those with anxiety is to queue up with a premade.

Some jobs that players are a fan of, and have been a fan of for years just happen to fall into a role they are not comfortable playing. DRK is a great example of this. Before it's implementation, a lot of players wanted it to be DPS, but it ended up being a tank. A lot of players would prefer GUN to be DPS as well, and it's going to be a tank. I am most comfortable playing a healer and really wanted DNC to be the fourth; it's going to be a DPS, which is what I am the most uncomfortable playing.

Now before you go off telling me to use premades, you should know that I usually do. Especially if my anxiety is particularly high as it often is when doing duties for the first time, or being there for the first time as a particular role. So I indeed do practice what I preach, and I'm not a hypocrite. However, I can't expect my FC to always be there to hold my hand. There are going to be times where I have to queue up alone. During this time, I have as much right to use the DF as anyone else.

I will agree that if you don't want to be judged, any kind of social activity is probably not for you. But it is also unhealthy. The "cure" for tanxiety is not to stay away from it; the cure is to get out there and do it; grab it by the horns and own it instead of letting it own you.

All of this is really neither here are there though, because the DF is all about grouping up with random players, with random skill levels, and with a myriad of personalities and mentalities. There's no avoiding it so the burden truly is on the person whose expectations are high, and not the one of lower skill, anxiety, laziness or whatever the hell you want to call it. The players who choose and can accept that they take what they can get are the ones that should be using DF. The kick feature is not meant to be a arbitrary grading system, but it is used as such because players can get away with it.

i'm not saying that anyone has any more or less right to use duty finder. and no, the kick feature is not an arbitrary grading system. its a tool to remove a member of the party via a majority vote if the party does not wish to go on with that member. nothing more, nothing less. some people are simply more willing to use it than others.

if a job you aesthetically like is a tank, thats fine, you can play it, but you will be expected by the party to fill your role and to fulfill that role in a way the party finds acceptable. if you dont like the standards a random group does or doesnt have you can go with friends or hope that the group is willing to tolerate your playstyle instead of their own. if they dont and kick you? well thats that.

[Aramina]

In games where kick culture dominates, i have seen this happen.

Gonna call BS on this one. I've played every major MMO that has come out in the past 20+ years and not a single one has disabled the kick feature.

[Feidam]

Gonna call BS on this one. I've played every major MMO that has come out in the past 20+ years and not a single one has disabled the kick feature.

No mmorpg that i know has fully disabled vote to kick, but some have placed other restrictions on it like can’t vote kick in this zone or if a boss has started etc. Also there are mmo’s that have gotten rid of the vote to kick at times due to player abuse but they were all first person shooters to my knowledge.