Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Fynlar]

TL;DR: The tank sets the pace, the healer validates the pace, and the DPS need to enjoy the fact that they're still not in queue.

Pretty much my opinion on the subject.

You wanna set the pace, you're free to go tank. Don't want to go tank? Yeah, most people don't; that's why DF still has tank shortages.

[van_arn]

Eh. Think I’ll error on the side of I want to play the game and not risk being suspended or banned after they went through the effort of adding to the TOS. The extra few minutes that the run might take are not worth possibly losing access to the hobby I enjoy. Just my take. I find it hard to believe that SE would post rules and then not enforce them. I mean I doubt they suspend or ban on one offense, assuming the offense wasn’t a large one, but I imagine they look for patterns. So for me to vote kick the “offense” needs to be more notable than doing normal pulls or a healer not dpsing.

Ultimately, that's your line to draw.

There's a point in the sand where, if Square were to action you, you'd shrug at them and say "so what?"

Because if they'd action you for what you felt was necessary to enjoy the game, they no longer provide a game you'd care to play.

In my own case, I kick tanks that refuse to pick up adds whether a dps pulled them or not. And I don't care if Square leaps to their defense. So what.

I've only needed to do it a handful of times over the time I've played, but the vote always succeeds (remember, the dps tanked for the tank so I get a free yes vote on the kick) and a GM *never* comes calling.

I'd simply say the tank refused to tank, so I got rid of them with my party. The GM cannot object without destroying my confidence in the leadership of the game.

[Feidam]

Ultimately, that's your line to draw.

There's a point in the sand where, if Square were to action you, you'd shrug at them and say "so what?"

Because if they'd action you for what you felt was necessary to enjoy the game, they no longer provide a game you'd care to play.

In my own case, I kick tanks that refuse to pick up adds whether a dps pulled them or not. And I don't care if Square leaps to their defense. So what.

I've only needed to do it a handful of times over the time I've played, but the vote always succeeds (remember, the dps tanked for the tank so I get a free yes vote on the kick) and a GM *never* comes calling.

I'd simply say the tank refused to tank, so I got rid of them with my party. The GM cannot object without destroying my confidence in the leadership of the game.

See the thing is a tank refusing to tank all the pull is something most players would argue is a legitimate reason to kick though. So that example would be one I wouldn’t fault anyone for kicking assuming they politely requested the tank to make sure to grab all the adds. It’s a far cry from kicking a tank because “I don’t feel he was pulling enough per pull”. One is failure to perform the role just like a dps that can’t meet the dps check; while the other is purely a personal preference on how to run the dungeon. I think that is kind of the distinctions they could possibly make if/when a report is made.

Also I wouldn’t be in a game I didn’t care to play. And If they sanctioned me because I broke the TOS that is on me and my behavior regardless of whether or not I agreed with the rule. When we play we are choosing to abide by their rules. We all accept the TOS when choose to play a MMO.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

i see it as a bit of a mix with considerations for the content and gear, there is literally no reason to large pull in satasha with a group that has one or no aoe, because it puts more onus on the healer to heal rather than allowing them to dps as well and kill things faster (problems arise when in copperbell the blam is insistent on pulling ahead of you and the healer refuses to heal you which keeps killing you on those large pulls and both of them are saying its your fault :tableflip: ), but if you have a well geared healer that knows their job (and isnt an afk fairy healer) generally you can get away with wall pulls

on the flip side of that, wall pulling in fucking bardams, av, and dd is stupid and everyone always wipes because theyre in a damn hurry >.<

Talking about big pulls in copperbell mine...

Sometime back in heavensward, I was doing roulettes on my ast.
Got in copper Bell normal with a warrior, after the elevator he picked up the first group ran to the second group continue running grab the third group...

And it was at this point that I turned off cleric stance and realized I was not going to be putting out any DPS spells...
That Warrior continued pulling all the way to the point where you have to blow up the wall to progress.

We managed to do it without dying!
It was a little rough here and there but it worked out.

[Alleo]

I am late to the discussion but still wanted to post my opinion on this.

I believe that the tank sets the pace because they are the ones that will have to manage the enemies. And if its a new tank I would find it even worse to force them to do something which will often just end in mistakes. It might be annoying to have a slow run but better slow and good then fast and poorly done. Kicking someone should really only be done if they are so bad that they cant tank at all or if they are mean. Otherwise I just find the group to be the bad one if they kick someone for small pulls and depending on how long it takes to get someone else you might even lose time with the kick. On top of that you might even lose the new player as a future tank that might pull faster when they are more confident in their abilities.

In the end people learn at a different pace and things that are fine for some are too much for others.

[LalaRu]

Enter a PUG and then lamenting you get people who plays as you don't like? Are yer all sirius?

[Caitlinzulu]

Ultimately, that's your line to draw.

There's a point in the sand where, if Square were to action you, you'd shrug at them and say "so what?"

Because if they'd action you for what you felt was necessary to enjoy the game, they no longer provide a game you'd care to play.

In my own case, I kick tanks that refuse to pick up adds whether a dps pulled them or not. And I don't care if Square leaps to their defense. So what.

I've only needed to do it a handful of times over the time I've played, but the vote always succeeds (remember, the dps tanked for the tank so I get a free yes vote on the kick) and a GM *never* comes calling.

I'd simply say the tank refused to tank, so I got rid of them with my party. The GM cannot object without destroying my confidence in the leadership of the game.

Well i tank often and when i do i set the pace i pull at. Which usually is wall to wall but sometimes i pull smaller. What I absolutely dont want is dps pulling for me. Usually i just let them keep the mobs in those cases.
With big groups its not allways easy to even see which ones you dont have agro on if they arent on your agro list due to being pulled by someone else.
Also the one who pulls gets a lead on the agro table so you are making life a whole lot more difficult for the tank.
If you want to kick me as tank then fine i'll prop be in a new party before you get your replacement.
Know that i intend to go into shadowbringers as main warrior.

[Indefiinable]

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps because they have to concentrate solely on healing, the dps will also not have infinite tp and eventually have to switch to single target. Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

[Indefiinable]

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps because they have to concentrate solely on healing, the dps will also not have infinite tp and eventually have to switch to single target. Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

[Granyala]

Possible to whom, the tank or the group?

Both obviously.
Your job as a tank is to pull as smoothly and hard as your gear and the group can handle.

Naturally it takes a few failed attempt to find those limits, so typically the first pull is always a coin toss.

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps

You don't.
Mobs don't hit hard enough and there are tank cooldowns.
Trust me, AE is A LOT faster.

Leveling dungeons excluded, those mobs hit like trucks.

Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

Because, due to the fact that mobs in ex dungeons hit like wet noodles with self esteem issues, it is extremely boring for both, tanks and healers to pull individual groups.